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To everyone saying the opposite is true, how can you honestly believe that? The exact opposite, really? Religion clearly does this in many instances. Crude example, why are bananas yellow? We don't know. Oh, it's because God made them that way. Think
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I think religion teaches that we cannot ever fully understand the world; that we should be at peace with not knowing without giving up. Satisfaction and harmony are not the same. We cannot fully understand the world because there an infinite amount to understand. Religion is a guide to accepting, not limiting.
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Seems a little absurd. Not black and white. Religion is gray matter. Be against religion because you aren't religious. Life on earth is enough understanding of the world. That's what it's about, right?
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No offense to Richard Dawkins, but the very reason we have religion is to teach us how to understand the world.
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Richard Dawkins desperately needs to seriously study philosophy and specially the ancient spiritual philosophy of the Vedas. There he would see that the whole focus of yoga self-realization is to *truly* understand the world about us. In fact, a yogi would laugh at the idea that a man such as Richard Dawkins understands the world, because he’s missing the most important part, beyond material sense perception. The idea that to be spiritual self-realized you have to be ignorant of the world makes no sense at all from the Vedic perspective. I know many great dedicated bhakti-yogis who are University professors, have PhDs, etc. On a very personal level, my wife, a dedicated bhakti-yogini, has a PhD in astrophysics and my spiritual master has a PhD from Harvard.
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Religion is the quest for understanding the world. Many religious beliefs or communities teach that "you have found the answer, stop looking and never question it again"... so that is a poor practice of religion and I am sure that is the "religion" being spoken of in this quote. However, the religion I subscribe to confirms that I must ever seek Truth and the more I attempt to understand the world, the better I will be able to understand how to live, and hopefully the closer to Truth I will get. If God is the Truth, after all, and you make your purpose to find Truth, won't God know this means your purpose is to find Him? Those who seek Him, according to my religion, will find Him (perhaps not while living on Earth, of course, as is evident with all those who searched for truth in their lives and came to different conclusions). Those who find Him and have faith in his teachings will be united with Him, and this is an intrinsically good thing.
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Religion is the quest for understanding the world. Many religious beliefs or communities teach that "you have found the answer, stop looking and never question it again"... so that is a poor practice of religion and I am sure that is the "religion" being spoken of in this quote. However, the religion I subscribe to confirms that I must ever seek Truth and the more I attempt to understand the world, the better I will be able to understand how to live, and hopefully the closer to Truth I will get. If God is the Truth, after all, and you make your purpose to find Truth, won't God know this means your purpose is to find Him? Those who seek Him, according to my religion, will find Him (perhaps not while living on Earth, of course, as is evident with all those who searched for truth in their lives and came to different conclusions). Those who find Him and have faith in his teachings will be united with Him, and this is an intrinsically good thing.
Therefore, this way of approaching religion makes the search for understanding the world paramount.
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I think this is quite a naive way to view religion, that it's just people not caring about the wonders of the universe and just worshiping God. It's quite on the contrary, and if my religion has taught me anything, it would be to question everything I see and hear.
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I don't really think that religion is exactly supposed to help you understand the world, at least not so much anymore. Spirituality and faith helps you understand yourself. As much as Dawkins seems to insist, religion and science are not at odds with one another or in competition. They have completely different purposes.
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When I listen to some politician from the religious right I absolutely agree with this Richard Dawkins quote. But some of my friends that are Christians are some the most curious, intellectual people I know.
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the universe/world will never be understood. however that doesn't mean we shouldn't explore it and make our own assumptions. its human nature... i agree with nature
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What he's saying is based on the idea that there is a right way to understand the world. That's an axiom of science. I think when people say 'there are many ways of understanding the world', what they're really saying is 'there are many ways to live a fulfilling life'. I agree with Dawkins that those two are not one and the same. In fact, understanding the world is a way of living a fulfilling life. Learning in a concrete, scientific way about the underpinnings of reality is an immensely satisfying and—dare I say it—numinous experience.
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What he's saying is based on the idea that there is a right way to understand the world. That's an axiom of science. I think when people say 'there are many ways of understanding the world', what they're really saying is 'there are many ways to live a fulfilling life'. I agree with Dawkins that those two are not one and the same. In fact, understanding the world is a way of living a fulfilling life. Learning in a concrete, scientific way about the underpinnings of reality is an immensely satisfying and—dare I say it—numinous experience.
Dawkins isn't saying that science has absolute knowledge of everything. If you take the time to listen to him, he is very eager to make that point. Science is based on uncertainty, on competition between contradicting ideas, on scrutiny; on the gradual approach of our ideas about reality to reality itself. There is nothing arrogant and everything humbling about science.
Popular religion on the other hand is the opposite of all of this. It says 'Here is a book. It is not like other books which are written by people; this book cannot ever be wrong. Goodness is defined as being in accordance with this book. Don't question it or you will be punished.' The way to figure things out about the mysterious and complex cosmos we inhabit is not to just accept claims like 'a magical entity did it'. It's to do some serious thinking. Crucially, it's to compare that thinking against the real thing. And then it's to be corrected if that comparison doesn't work out like you'd hoped.
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Not true. Religions are filled with so many books and writings to read, and if you just think of a good point, then High five your atheist friends, then you are missing out on more knowledge.
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I've had a problem with organized church religion since a local church bilked my father out of a fortune. They sucked him in at a time of grief and proceeded to ask him for $$$$$ to build a new school. They would have sucked him dry if it hadn't been for Tammy Faye and Jim Bakker's church crimes. He saw that and began to question the motives of his new minister. Until the day he died this shark of a church chased after his money. They even tried to seduce me into their fellowship of the almighty dollar.
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I actually believe the complete opposite...I am for religion (spiritual thinking) because it teaches me [how] to understand the world. If one takes the time to truly research religion, they will find all the answers even using equations and scientific formulas to prove the existence of a higher power. However, I realize that type of learning does take a great deal of time but I feel it is worth it to find the truth.
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You know where the saying "to do something religiously" comes from?
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You know where the saying "to do something religiously" comes from?
It means doing something so often and regularly that you don't even think about why you do it, in essence shutting off your cognitive process. I want my life to have far more vitality than that.
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Makes me think of this...
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Makes me think of this...
“The Divine was expansive, but religion was reductive. Religion attempted to reduce the Divine to a knowable quantity with which mortals might efficiently deal, to pigeonhole it once and for all so that we never had to reevaluate it. With hammers of cant and spikes of dogma, we crucified and crucified again, trying to nail to our stationary altars the migratory light of the world.”
? Tom Robbins, Skinny Legs and All
It's a great book.
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A big flaw (I believe) with religion is the fact that each religion is so specific. Unless the strict rules of practice are believed in and abided by, a person is considered "wrong." Not a single person on earth knows exactly how this world came to be. This simple fact is why I believe people should be open to accepting what they do not understand, and formulate an educated belief. I can neither confirm nor deny that God created this world. And neither can anyone else.
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The harsh reality is science won't save anyone's soul. Christ went to the cross to accomplish that task. We need to send more 'kneelmails' His way.
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religion has a lot of other functions in different societies. Its purpose is not solely to explain the natural world. Religion brings people together and conversely can create tension in a society, it also gives people hope and a sense of control when faced with the frustration of a chaotic world.
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I believe that man (not God) wrote religious books to control and pacify the masses, a part of doing that was to ensure there was a consistent and easy answer for almost everything (i.e., join the bandwagon - let's all think the same thing! BTW, let's tithe your income so that the church can live rich even if you're very poor), and as a result those easy answers do tend to quash our natural curiosity. I mean, if you have an answer, are you more likely to continue hunting for an answer or just say 'done' and go on to the next thing? I see some negative commentary on this conversation about Dawkins - I don't know much of anything about him but, if one believes that God created everything, didn't God also create science and our ability to question both God and science?
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The quote should say, "I am against religion because none of them believe that Richard Dawkins is God."
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My thoughts are that you can't have one without the other. God uses science as a tool in religion. He works wonders through the miracles of science. I've found my religion and I have asked a million questions and recieved a million anwsers, all of which make sense. I don't feel like when you have a religion that you aren't suppose to ask question, like it has been said in earlier responses. Ask a million questions. It's what you believe, you should question it and find/recieve anwsers. In contrast to Dawkins, I understand the world through religion. Might not make sense to everyone else, but it makes sense to me.
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There's bad religion and healthy religion, imo. Bad religions present people a blueprint for reality that is divorced from reality and actually creates chaos and dysfunction. Healthy religion helps us confront ourselves and reality.
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There's bad religion and healthy religion, imo. Bad religions present people a blueprint for reality that is divorced from reality and actually creates chaos and dysfunction. Healthy religion helps us confront ourselves and reality.
With the bad religions and bad religious people I've encountered, their "understanding" of the world is unalterably formed by their religion. They are actually aggressive about maintaining a cognitive map of reality borne of their religion, and will actually seek to impose it on others (obliterating our self-agency and even our identity or distinction). I think it's what he meant by "satisfaction". It more than "satisfaction" but a resolute commitment to static ideas and an unchanging reality which is quite literally impossible.
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The ultimate answer of scientific inquiry must be that it is because it is. If you can ask more you have not yet reached the end of your research. If you enjoy the quest by all means go for it, just realize where you are heading.
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I think in some ways with regards to certain individuals in specific religions this statement is true, religion at times can provide an 'ignorance is bliss' approach to the universe. However for many people religion answers questions that reason and 'science' alone does not (and perhaps can not) answer - just because Richard Dawkins is not satisfied with the understanding of the world that religion provides, it is not for Mr. D to say that it doesn't provide any at all.
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I really think most people that are against so-called religion are doing the same thing that they accuse religion of doing. They have become satisfied with not understanding the spiritual world and they blame religion for this state, sometime rightly so. They have become followers of science as rabidly as the religionists are followers of their religion and have stopped inquiring about "religion" just like the religionist has stopped inquiring about science. Two camps, the same outcome.
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I don't do organized religion because you are expected to believe what everyone else in the building believes, and you best not question it. I believe what choose to believe. No one can tell me I have to be in a church to believe in God. As far as the world goes, find me one person that remotely understands what the heck is going on.
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A clear example of the truth of this statement: http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/2006-06-15-hawking_x.htm
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A clear example of the truth of this statement: http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/2006-06-15-hawking_x.htm
The Pope told Stephen Hawking that physicists should not study the beginning of the universe because it is the work of God.
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Being satisfied that we do not know everything about the world does not necessarily stop us from continuing to learn about the world. We use whatever methods we wish to use to either decide to accept our derived answers or keep searching for answers.
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Being satisfied that we do not know everything about the world does not necessarily stop us from continuing to learn about the world. We use whatever methods we wish to use to either decide to accept our derived answers or keep searching for answers.
It is not the methods of understanding (i.e. science, religion) that lead people to stop learning, but rather the assumption that conclusions are certain that tends to lead people to stop looking for answers to their questions.
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I think it misses the point and tells you how to be whether you understand it or not and that by just doing something you will therefore be worthy. It's fear based and does not require one to inquire and question but to do in order to get to heaven which misses the point of life. So many people just blindly going, listening and trying to do but not really understanding and that understanding is the key. However you should never be against anything you should focus on what you are for!
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I wouldn't attribute this to all religions in general, because all religions are not the same. Hinduism, for example, has many followers that believe that the world needs to be understood, because everything in the world has a connection with the metaphysical world, even if we can't see it at this point of human existence. Shinto similarly sees a connection between the spiritual world and the physical world, and encourages understanding between the two. It is much the same for several other decentralized, nature- or balance-focused religions: Buddhism, Jainism, Taoism.
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I wouldn't attribute this to all religions in general, because all religions are not the same. Hinduism, for example, has many followers that believe that the world needs to be understood, because everything in the world has a connection with the metaphysical world, even if we can't see it at this point of human existence. Shinto similarly sees a connection between the spiritual world and the physical world, and encourages understanding between the two. It is much the same for several other decentralized, nature- or balance-focused religions: Buddhism, Jainism, Taoism.
I think that Mr. Dawkins' statement is instead aimed at the other major religions on this planet, the ones with hierarchical structures where someone at the top tells you what to believe. The Pope, the Patriarch, caliphs, bishops, prophets from long ago, your local pastor, all have both authority and opinions. For such a long time, those authority figures told you how it is, and told you to accept that. Often, if their long-held ideas conflict with something science tells you about the world, they will tell you to have faith and ignore those silly scientists. I come from a city in the deep south, with lots of sweet tea and "ya'll" and where evangelicalism is not only the default, it is the law of the land. I have been directly told that evolution is entirely a myth, that reading Stephen Hawking's book is harmful to me, and that the study of genetics is a great sin and thoroughly evil. Here, the people who hold religious power more often than not do indeed teach to have faith and to be satisfied with that, to understand the world only through the stories told in a really old book. Many branches of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism teach similar ideas. And in many cases, their beliefs have translated into laws that stop anyone from even trying to expand their understanding (stem cell research, anyone?). It has taken individuals with an abundance of courage to step one foot out of the line, make a discovery, and wait for the rest of the line to take that step as well. I am only thankful that throughout history, there have been these brave individuals (and today, we see more and more) that are curious, that look for answers despite what they have been told, and find that they can easily balance their own religion with scientific understanding. That is what it becomes: their own religion, not the religion formed by the opinions of the individuals higher up the chain of authority.
I'm not sure that what Mr. Dawkins has said is wholly accurate, and it is certainly worded poorly. But there is definitely a grain of truth embedded in his statement. It is not the religions themselves that stop people from understanding, it is the interpretation and practice of those religions, and the failure to temper religion with reason. I myself am against the religious authorities around the world that teach us, and in some cases compel us, to be satisfied with not understanding the world, and I refuse to settle for that.
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I am against organized religion as well, due to the fact the all to often people can become brain washed under certain sets of principals, that fall under these religious orders. Why is it that the Vatican, is one of the wealthiest most powerful territories in the World? Am I the only one who see’s something wrong with this? The most barbaric atrocity’s in human history, were done in the name of one religion, or another. Then you take the messiah, of any given religion, who was not a person who by any means, wanted or expected to be worshiped. Christ, Buddha, Muhammad, Mosses, David, were all highly enlightened beings, who wanted people to follow in their examples, using their teachings to make the world a better place, not worship them on alters. When People use worship, as a means to live by, evil can prevail, with people thinking that they will just make up for the evil deed, or ask forgiveness later. When you live the life of Buddha, or Christ, there is no excuse for evil deeds…Why is it that we feel the need to fit into a religious cult. Have the courage to repent, against your peers, do your research, and think and believe the way you wish, letting your heart, separate fact, from fiction…But this is just what I think, I could be totally deranged…
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Since this is not the conclusion of an objective, long-range study, then Mr. Dawkins is entitled to his opinions, just like the rest of us.
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There always seems to be this idea of religion v science and that's just not the way it is. Sure, there are plenty of cases of science being thwarted by religion, but if you look at the majority of scientific discovery you will find that most of the responsible scientist were theists of some sort.
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I feel like this statement is quite true. I am not against others practicing religion, but I am against it when it comes to my own personal beliefs.....
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i am against those who are against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not allowing others to believe in whatever they want to believe in.
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I think he's quite correct. Religion offers answers without evidence. What's further is that it answers unknowns with other unknown quantities and yes, it is with the expectation that we are satisfied with this.
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Depends on your definition of religion. Depends on the context of this statement. Some religious beliefs can do that.
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Depends on your definition of religion. Depends on the context of this statement. Some religious beliefs can do that.
However, I do not regard my faith in Jesus as impeding in any way my curiosity about the world, or the curiosity of other believers I see around me. We are not satisfied with not understanding the world; curious scientists can be religious, atheistic, agnostic -- curiosity is not necessarily killed by religion.
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If your religion explains the creation of the universe and existence, and you accept the explanation, why would you still be curious about it?
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If your religion explains the creation of the universe and existence, and you accept the explanation, why would you still be curious about it?
Clearly, even those who profess faith in religious explanations of reality, don't reeeeaaaallllyyyy buy it. "It's God's mystery and beyond our comprehension" doesn't cut it.
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well, I think that's painting with a pretty broad brush..considering there are thousands of religions in this world, and certainly not just the Abrahamic ones. as a matter of fact the very heart of Confusionism, Daoism, and Buddhism is learning to be in harmony with the world, something, I think, would be impossible to do without understanding it.
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well, I think that's painting with a pretty broad brush..considering there are thousands of religions in this world, and certainly not just the Abrahamic ones. as a matter of fact the very heart of Confusionism, Daoism, and Buddhism is learning to be in harmony with the world, something, I think, would be impossible to do without understanding it.
I think "religion", like mythology, is humankinds attempt to explain the unexplainable.., curiously the same goal as science.
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Richard Dawkins doesn't realize that equating religion and God isn't correct. God is not the author of religion, man is. What he calls 'science' becomes a religion too when it is based upon faith based hypotheses which have no observable, testable or repeatable attributes.
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Bullshit. Sorry, but I can't phrase it in pretty language. There may be some teachings in some religions that lend themselves to not understanding the world, but I am always curious about how the world works and how things came to be. That's one of the reasons I love this site. There are so many people on here who know so much more about science and the physical world, and I love reading what they have to say. My current fascination is early human inventions. I've just picked up knitting again (after 30 years) and every time I pick up the needles I'm amazed that someone thought this up. Who would think to take the wool from sheep, wash it, card it, spin it and then knit it? It's amazing to think of.
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There is real religion which is based on the teachings of holy beings God sends us
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There is real religion which is based on the teachings of holy beings God sends us
from age to age. For example Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad, Baha'u'llah.
I do not know of anything in their teachings which discourages
us from understanding the world. To my knowledge, nothing in their
teachings is opposed to science. Though I admit I am no scholar.
Then there is false religion created by fallible humans; this fake religion
often is opposed to science and to understanding the world.
I think Mr. Dawkins was talking about the religions created by
humans, not about the true religion which comes from the Messengers
of God.
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While I can find faults in Richard Dawkins that reveal (shock horror) that he is indeed human with some human failings -
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While I can find faults in Richard Dawkins that reveal (shock horror) that he is indeed human with some human failings -
his statement quoted above is nothing short of slight understatement..
Religion (if you can group it all under that banner) has some common features - a central one is a set of teachings from the time of its founding, that inevitably become ridiculous as we discover the reality that it tried to contain with its mumbo jumbo...
all modern intelligent members of the major churches admit that their holy scriptures ( all written long after the events they pretend to portray, by people whose grandfathers were not alive during the time portrayed) are horribly dated and only useful as metaphor or collection of myths.
This is only one way in which religion holds us back from the collective development of understanding -
the chain backwards from your personal computer that can surf the world wide web and talk televisually to anyone on the planet - goes back to those scientists who dared to go against the teachings of the dominant religions...
If all had complied with the dogma of Islam and Christianity from the era pre 1000AD then we would still be eating gruel by tallow candle light as our children died of strange diseases and wars raged over who should rule in the name of Allah..
so yeah -
Dawkins UNDERSTATED the case in that quote.
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I'm not sure if I'm on par with Mr. Dawkins with this one. Religions are diverse and perplexing as they may be, some do promote science. Christians and the southern baptist churches don't seem to care much about what they do to the religion, however. it's almost like the crucifixions they adorn themselves with are literally meant to pain the Christ Man instead of signify what he stood for.
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Religion and Science teach many of the same things. only that this hasn't been publicly acknowledged by humanity yet.
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