reply
- Feature
- Like
I think a distinction needs to be made between religion and what is said about spirituality, science, art etc. I think, especially science, there is enough room for all of them. I believe both science and religion are asking completely different questions - science = how? religion = why? Are there can coexist.
reply
I think we need to define the difference between religion and dogma. Dogma is the rules that religious people set up and hold as absolute truths, religion is the ideas behind faith.
- Feature
- Like
I think we need to define the difference between religion and dogma. Dogma is the rules that religious people set up and hold as absolute truths, religion is the ideas behind faith.
Even dogma has it's value (I'll put it in the best metaphor I can). Say spirituality is a building, religion is the foundation, dogma is the scaffolding (makes building easier but should be removed once the building is done). Or you could say that spirituality is a tree, religion is the seed and dogma is the shell that protects the seed (water, earth, air and sun light would be experience/life).
The sad part is, this is how it should be not how it is. People hold on to dogma far longer than they should, it restrains and even corrupts the beautiful spirituality that should be flowing out of there religion.
reply
- Feature
- Like
Maybe religious THOUGHT is what needs to be destroyed. The pattern that is usually related to religious thought is that of acceptance without thought and inflexibility. There are individuals that have transcended this behavior, but I am thinking that those aren't the people we are talking about. The thing is though that you find this sort of mentality in ANY field or arena in life. So you can remove religion, but those people that need something "external" to follow will find something. It's in the nature of that habit. Perhaps this question is best answered with the 'feather reshaping the diamond moutain' analogy. We don't see the change because it happens so slowly. So best to free one's self from one's bindings... perhaps that is part of that feather fluffing away at that big ol' mountain! :)
reply
Not necessarily. Do we accept the fact that there will always be human beings alive at various evolutionary stages as it pertains to self-actualization? I think so, which means that religion may be necessary for some (not judging it as lower on the evolutionary scale than spirituality but acknowledging that religion in some instances stifles self-responsibility for some people). Religion, at its best, is designed to help man remember that he is god. This is the ultimate in self-responsibility, which is why many men settle for the rites and rituals of religion instead.
- Feature
- Like
Not necessarily. Do we accept the fact that there will always be human beings alive at various evolutionary stages as it pertains to self-actualization? I think so, which means that religion may be necessary for some (not judging it as lower on the evolutionary scale than spirituality but acknowledging that religion in some instances stifles self-responsibility for some people). Religion, at its best, is designed to help man remember that he is god. This is the ultimate in self-responsibility, which is why many men settle for the rites and rituals of religion instead.
Spirituality is often more boundless, giving humans an opportunity to grasp the spirit of religion without the dogma that it sometimes brings with it. I was raised Baptist, but now follow an Eastern spiritual path. And my religious upbringing was instrumental in setting me on the path to want to know god more intimately so both religion and spirituality have done right by me. I realize that is not necessarily the same experience for others.
reply
- Feature
- Like
What I find interesting are those who speak out against 'religion' while having their own point of view, yet without even realizing it they themselves are just as 'religious' in their views as those they condemn. Man's ways versus God.
reply
- Feature
- Like
religions not a big deal with the new generation anymore. so it's fine to have with whomever still believes it but theres definitely a new trend acoming
reply
Ditto on the last response, short answer is yes. Sam Harris has a lot to say about this in The Moral Landscape. Was just reading a quote of his yesterday that answers this better than I can.
- Feature
- Like
Ditto on the last response, short answer is yes. Sam Harris has a lot to say about this in The Moral Landscape. Was just reading a quote of his yesterday that answers this better than I can.
"No myth needs to be embraced for us to commune with the profundity of our circumstance. No personal God need be worshipped for us to live in awe at the beauty and immensity of creation. No tribal fictions need be rehearsed for us to realize, one fine day, that we do, in fact, love our neighbors, that our happiness is inextricable from their own, and that our interdependence demands that people everywhere be given the opportunity to flourish. The days of our religious identities are clearly numbered. Whether the days of civilization itself are numbered would seem to depend, rather too much, on how soon we realize this.” ~ Sam Harris, The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason ~
reply
SHORT ANSWER: YES.
- Feature
- Like
SHORT ANSWER: YES.
Spirituality has existed since time immemorial. Hundreds of thousands of different religions tried and still don't get it. If you listen to religious zealots, it's above you.
If you listen to yourself you'd know it's in you, it's all around you.
reply
There are two types of people: Those who believe Dogma and admit it and those who believe Dogma and deny it.
- Feature
- Like
There are two types of people: Those who believe Dogma and admit it and those who believe Dogma and deny it.
It has been said that Man is the only Religious (and Rational) animal on the planet. This is the entire purpose of the (rather new) field of Neurotheology - the study of the religious parts of the human brain.
It's built into us to be religious - hard wired. What would be the benefit of breaking away from that?
If you see religion as dogma disconnected from rational argument, then I would suggest that you dig deeper. Buddhism's 4 Noble Truths and Eightfold Path are a place to start. The Summa Theologica by Thomas Aquinas, or Confessions by Saint Augustine, or even the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
The goal is typically not to become more "spiritual" as we are inseparably body/spirit creatures. The goal of following any (sane) religion is to become more Holy.
Leaving the body to become "pure spirit" is not necessarily beneficial. Satan and Kali are pure spirits without material bodies. I don't hold them as role models.
reply
I think that religion has held an essential role in humanity up until this point in our development as a species. To begin with, religion has fostered the all-important social invention of the tribe by binding similarly-thinking people by their most essential beliefs. This not only has had obvious physical benefits, such as protection from danger and the sharing of resources, but it has helped us develop into the social beings that we are. As social beings, we benefit from sharing our deepest thoughts on life with others, and we have come to depend on close interpersonal relationships so much that it becomes a detriment to our mental health when we are isolated. Another reason that religion has held an important aspect in our development is that it confronts us with the deepest, most meaningful questions and stimulates our moral development. If only in a rudimentary way, religion has created a moral being.
- Feature
- Like
I think that religion has held an essential role in humanity up until this point in our development as a species. To begin with, religion has fostered the all-important social invention of the tribe by binding similarly-thinking people by their most essential beliefs. This not only has had obvious physical benefits, such as protection from danger and the sharing of resources, but it has helped us develop into the social beings that we are. As social beings, we benefit from sharing our deepest thoughts on life with others, and we have come to depend on close interpersonal relationships so much that it becomes a detriment to our mental health when we are isolated. Another reason that religion has held an important aspect in our development is that it confronts us with the deepest, most meaningful questions and stimulates our moral development. If only in a rudimentary way, religion has created a moral being.
That being said, I believe that we are far enough in our development to break away from a lot of the dogmatic principles of religion. Religion, like an authoritarian parent, models appropriate moral behavior, though (at least in my experience) offers little explanation as to the “whys” of those behaviors. Many religions will draw moral standards from their holy books, or the word of God, but will not breakdown the logic behind said morals. I think that we, as a species, are much like an adolescent and are ready to explore our own identities without being directed by an outside source and finally answer those questions.
I am not suggesting abandoning religion altogether, because it still certainly carries a great amount of meaning. Many people have identified that their religion legitimately does fit with their internal goals and motivation and enjoy the ritualistic and community aspects of it. However, I suggest that religion be viewed as a choice rather than an indoctrination, and that it not be passed down simply because “it’s tradition.” I would like to see an encouragement of developing one’s morals internally before depending on an institution to dictate morals and to question existing principles in religion (without being threatened by the institution). I would like to see people thinking critically about why they are involved in their religion, what is being asked of them, and why. I would like to see a shift from externally-controlled morals to internally-controlled morals.
reply
First, I think a distinction needs to be made between religion, as some exist with a hypocritical hierarchy preaching one thing to its followers and another to the world, and spirituality. Has spirituality really become such an icky word that we cannot even discuss its potential for having an evolved meaning outside of a religion? Does spirituality still have to house a meaning of the "supernatural?" What if your spirituality is not something tied to a faith, rigid or otherwise, but more a belief in the power of the human potential for greatness? (Novelist65 said this in another thread) Does religion need to be destroyed? Maybe, but the spirituality (as understood by the statement above) of any religion should be carefully considered. We are told Jesus (I was born and raised Catholic, though no longer practicing) taught that when struck to turn the other cheek, an obvious message of peace in the face of all things. Somehow the Catholic faith and many others, be they any of the sects of Christianity, Islam or Judaism have been hijacked in a sense to teach peace amongst the followers toward each other who think the exact same way, but to prepare for war, spiritual and otherwise with those of differing opinions. Somehow I do not think the original intentions of the writers of the Gospels were that Christians should love Christians, but hate Jews and Muslims.
- Feature
- Like
First, I think a distinction needs to be made between religion, as some exist with a hypocritical hierarchy preaching one thing to its followers and another to the world, and spirituality. Has spirituality really become such an icky word that we cannot even discuss its potential for having an evolved meaning outside of a religion? Does spirituality still have to house a meaning of the "supernatural?" What if your spirituality is not something tied to a faith, rigid or otherwise, but more a belief in the power of the human potential for greatness? (Novelist65 said this in another thread) Does religion need to be destroyed? Maybe, but the spirituality (as understood by the statement above) of any religion should be carefully considered. We are told Jesus (I was born and raised Catholic, though no longer practicing) taught that when struck to turn the other cheek, an obvious message of peace in the face of all things. Somehow the Catholic faith and many others, be they any of the sects of Christianity, Islam or Judaism have been hijacked in a sense to teach peace amongst the followers toward each other who think the exact same way, but to prepare for war, spiritual and otherwise with those of differing opinions. Somehow I do not think the original intentions of the writers of the Gospels were that Christians should love Christians, but hate Jews and Muslims.
And what is a belief in the power of human greatness, but a constant search to unlock every aspect of knowledge possible in the universe; science and math. Can that be spirituality? From the "religious" people that I know, their moments of "connecting with [a higher power]" whether it be through prayer/meditation or a group ritual of coming together with a common purpose sounds, to me anyway, oddly similar to a scientist breaking through a barrier they came upon in research, be it their own or reading the results of others, or a mathematician finally figuring out the abstract proof to connect point A to point B. You may not read the Bible, written by humans (who's hands were supposedly guided by "God"), but you do read the latest publications on math, or science, also written by humans, maybe writing from a higher sense of unveiling the next step in human understanding. If we broaden our understanding of the word “spirituality” to this or maybe abandon it totally, and replace it with something less “spooky,” I think we’d be better off.
Religion(s) in the context of being a significant part (in some instances the whole) of our history should not be entirely abandoned for every idea contained therein. Griz and ArtOfLife said it very well; religion is not something that we can just toss out, it was a part of our past and its foundation is part of our future, but which part? Can we not take some the better ideals of religion and maybe leave out the bad? Freud set the foundation for modern psychology, though the scientific community now laughs at most of his theories. Maybe the whole purpose of religion is to get us thinking and lead us on a path to being better people by just focusing on and finding solutions for the problem of the human experience as a whole, not by adhering to strict religious policies.
Should religion be abandoned? Maybe, but if it is, the dedication or sacredness felt in connecting with those ideas and rituals should not be lost, merely redirected to a new form of "spirituality" that can benefit the whole of humankind and not just other people that find important the same ancient texts as you.
reply
There is a very American notion that "religion is bad" and "spirituality is good". I used to hold this notion until I poked at it. Once I questioned it, I found that this often comes from many people who grew up in a religious household, but never made a personal connection with that religion.
- Feature
- Like
There is a very American notion that "religion is bad" and "spirituality is good". I used to hold this notion until I poked at it. Once I questioned it, I found that this often comes from many people who grew up in a religious household, but never made a personal connection with that religion.
"Being Spiritual but not Religious" also tends to mean, "I get to say 'I believe in God' but have no accountability to Him whatsoever."
There are serious believers who will say "I'm spiritual but not religious." Anyone who undertakes any sort of conscious, committed spiritual practice will eventually exhibit 3 fundamental elements:
1.) Certain beliefs about that God/higher power/spirit
(God is Personal or an Impersonal Force, God is knowable through Reason or Revelation, God is like "this" but not like "that", etc.)
2.) There is a way of relating with that God or Force - a way of worship or expressing that relationship with God in some form of ritual. (Ritual can include music, burning incense, meditation, or getting together with others who are also going to express that belief in some form.)
3.) Some moral code
(this is what is right to do, this is what is wrong to do, and any possible exceptions)
To recap:
Conscious and committed spirituality includes beliefs, a way of connection/worship, and a moral code.
Guess what? That's the definition of religion. Or at least it used to be until the mid 1960s in America when Zen and Pagan "spirituality" began to become the popular alternative to "organized religion".
There is no being "spiritual" in any sort of serious way without being "religious". The more seriously one pursues spirituality, the more religious one becomes. Try to imagine being "spiritual" in any *serious way* without those 3 elements listed above. It doesn't work.
reply
If religion was more personal and less of an Industry that would be a different story, but just like other people mentioned, religion has become too much of a social distorted way of manipulating people.
- Feature
- Like
If religion was more personal and less of an Industry that would be a different story, but just like other people mentioned, religion has become too much of a social distorted way of manipulating people.
So just by being connected to ourselves through science, art and helping and loving each other, we can get to pure spirituality.
reply
- Feature
- Like
This attitude that the two can be separated is absurd. This question reminds me of that youtube video titled something to the tune of "I hate religion but love jesus." It seems to me to be an attempt by the religious to seperate themselves from all of the nonsense that makes their beliefs look insanely stupid. So to answer the question. No. Religion is required for such a useless and stupid idea to survive.
reply
- Feature
- Like
I don't think religion is bad or should be done away with. However, because of humans, and human nature---we sure have confused alot of people. People who grew up knowing of God or loving God, and then making "mistakes" are made to feel guilty and "unforgiven"...and being judged by other "humans". I think people made a mess of some parts of religion. For me, I believe in God, and I believe He is a good God, who loves and forgives--me AND others. I am ashamed sometimes of people who call themselves Christians. It confused me so much in the past and I quit believing for a whiile and just "lived my life"...only to find it was still empty. Empty making mistakes, empty trying just church, empty. Then I put trust in GOD, (not people) and realized that although I still struggle with organized religion, I would rather be serving my God and have inner peace, than be alone searching with other loners who think they are awful but independent, and never truly find peace. When I realized that, I finally started to live and enjoy my life again. Thank you for such a probing question---it reminds me of the old me. Best wishes on your search for answers....
reply
- Feature
- Like
I feel that organized religion has brought on a whole new phase of hypocritical tendencies. Many churches do many great things, but to reach full and true spirituality- we need to stop following the people and start being true to ourselves.
reply
- Feature
- Like
I think if religion was forgotten we'd have total anarchy. Look what happens when there's a blackout or a flood. If the majority of mankind were in touch with a spiritual side your suggestion would make sense but as a whole, we are like brute beasts, as evidenced by a very long history of war, greed and oppression. We wouldn't improve without religion, we'd devolve rather than evolve. Spirituality works for a certain kind of person but the masses need religion to tell them what not to do so we can live together...more or less.
reply
Your premise is that 'spirituality' is as important as science and arts, and that it is good that it flourishes. Why do you think that?
- Feature
- Like
Your premise is that 'spirituality' is as important as science and arts, and that it is good that it flourishes. Why do you think that?
If you think that vague poetic notions about beings answering prayers or designing the world or listening to our thoughts is a worthy complement to Einstein and Voltaire then I'd have to disagree.
Some people think that love of a beautiful landscape, or an amazing painting is being spiritual. It isn't, you can be poetic and emotional and in love etc etc without adopting the supernatural.. in fact most people do.
reply
- Feature
- Like
We're running the experiment regardless. I am glad to see that many are choosing to consider themselves 'spiritual', even though I have no use for that concept myself. Anything that takes away from organized religion is a plus in my book.
reply
- Feature
- Like
I dont know that any religion should be forgotten as much as they need to be updated. Too many beliefs systems have foundations that are less relevant to society today. We all need to take the time to be understanding of one another and help each other out. The time for selfishness and hate is long over. We must move forward with compassion and forgiveness in order to evolve.
reply
- Feature
- Like
I not going to say much, but i think certian religions need to get out of town. Some, however, are not that bad (most are far eastern teachings). I think its clear though that the abraham faiths have done more harm than good for the most part. The Islam extremist are the worst, you know the ones that like to blow people up (yeah that sh*t is a disease). Though if it wasn't religion I'm sure they would use some other kind of method/idea to fuel their fight for power in the middle east. In the end it really goes beyond just religion, because religion by itself ain't that bad its what people do with it that f***s things up. So the real question is how do you stop as*holes from being evil as*holes? Probably nothing they just keep coming. Is world peace possible? No not in a finite setting where resources are limited. War in the grand scale is natural, just look at the wild (pretty cut throat). So my answer is no throwing religion out is not the source it is simply a tool for evil people to use for power. Power is everything to these people they will find a way (its just religions work this best for this sort of brainwashing). How do you stop an idea without killing them?
reply
- Feature
- Like
Religion is like the gene pool; the more diverse, the better (as long as larger/more aggresive varieties don't seek to assimilate or dominate the pool). The more viewpoints that try to make sense of our existance, the more we evolve creatively...
reply
- Feature
- Like
I think the difference is that being spiritual means searching for, and being open to recieve, the answers to life's big questions and being religious means you've already decided that you know the answers. Unfortunately it also (not always but too frequently) means that you believe that your answer is the only correct one. So, I believe that the human condition can be improved by leaving room for tolerance of differing ideas within each religion.
reply
- Feature
- Like
I believe there is a rather fluid boundary between spirituality and religion. Spiritual practices that are untethered to a particular religion often reflect religious ritual. It is also true that religious ritual often reflects elements that are generally considered "spiritual." Use of candle light, or water, for example. Can be found in general spiritual practice and in formal religious practice. Spirituality has flourished, with our without religion, for millenia. And religions have always had practitioners who exude a vibrant spirituality--even today. For example, Brother Wayne Teasdale, or Eboo Patel are both examples of spiritual people who also practice (or in Brother Wayne's case, practiced) a particular "bronze age" religion.
reply
Well.... religion in itself used to work as social glue. It gave societies a common thread and helped the development of culture.
- Feature
- Like
Well.... religion in itself used to work as social glue. It gave societies a common thread and helped the development of culture.
The problem with religion is the interpretation given to it and which quite frankly depends mainly on the objectives of the person giving the interpretation.
Religion as a field of study or as culture should pose no obstacle for the flourishing of mankind and the sciences.
reply
Followers of a specific religion are approaching their faith in a scientific way. Personally, I do not consider myself religious, but I can understand and appreciate why others are.
- Feature
- Like
Followers of a specific religion are approaching their faith in a scientific way. Personally, I do not consider myself religious, but I can understand and appreciate why others are.
In school, we are given math books, physics books, chemistry books, and a whole bunch of other books that are designed to teach us how to solve specific problems. The Bible, Quran, Torah, and a whole bunch of other religious books follow that same concept.
Religious books teach us how to solve or approach specific problems through stories or commandments. Math and science books teach us how to solve or approach specific problems through formulas or rules/laws.
In my opinion, the Bible, Quran, Torah, and all other religious books, were the "math and science" books of the time in which they were written. Earthquakes, tsunamis, tornadoes, hurricanes and typhoons were inexplicable to them other than it must be "God".
Now, we know that earthquakes and tsunamis are common repercussions of shifting tectonic plates. We know that tornadoes, hurricanes, and typhoons form under fairly specific atmospheric criteria. People of that time didn't have hubble space-telescopes, electron microscopes, and particle accelerators to observe and explain the world around them.
I find the answer to your question best answered through the following quote:
"We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if mankind is to survive."
- Albert Einstein
reply
- Feature
- Like
Religion is a vehicle in which the Ascended Masters provide us as a way to grow spiritually. Unfortunately, we humans allowed the 'ego' to become involved, and have completely screwed it up.
reply
- Feature
- Like
I think people have a lot of time on their hands to read and write such extravigant posts.
reply
I think an important line to be drawn is religion as a group of faith-sharing individuals and religion as a zealotous organization bent on proving other such organizations wrong. I participate in a religion that finds beauty and truth in all religions, while providing missionaries and resources to help anyone interested to learn more of it.
- Feature
- Like
I think an important line to be drawn is religion as a group of faith-sharing individuals and religion as a zealotous organization bent on proving other such organizations wrong. I participate in a religion that finds beauty and truth in all religions, while providing missionaries and resources to help anyone interested to learn more of it.
Religion as faith groups works as an edifier and safehouse for spirituality, much like this website does.
However, religion as a zealotous group causes polarization and contention. While I believe my faith to be true, I look to learn as much as I can from other faiths, and hope that I can help others learn about me.
reply
- Feature
- Like
I think that the shade that religion puts over a person's eyes can shield them from the truth. Most religions are based on the principle that we all need to work together to grow (spiritually). Meaning that we all exists in one form or another to serve each other in some philosophical way. In order to cohesively be on one accord the principles that separate us must be removed. Have we truly forgotten what religion is for? Is was never meant to stop progress and enrichment but to enhance them.
reply
The term spirituality is very lightly used these days. We are quick to say 'I'm spiritual but not religious'. Before we answer the question what needs to be destroyed in order for the other to flourish we need to ask some basic questions regarding spirituality.
- Feature
- Like
The term spirituality is very lightly used these days. We are quick to say 'I'm spiritual but not religious'. Before we answer the question what needs to be destroyed in order for the other to flourish we need to ask some basic questions regarding spirituality.
What is spirituality? Can we proof the existence of a spirit?
As may be established empirically, matter is not essential so that existence may be made subject to it, and be dependent on it. Rather, matter subsists through a meaning, and that meaning is life, it is spirit.
Also, as may be established through observation, matter is not the thing served so that everything may be ascribed to it. It is rather the servant; it renders service to the process of the perfection of a truth. And that truth is life. And the fundament of that truth is spirit.
Also, as is self-evident, matter is not dominant so that recourse may be made to it or perfections sought from it. Rather, it is dominated; it looks to the decree of some fundament, it is in motion in the way that that decree dictates. And that fundament is life, it is spirit, it is consciousness.
Also, as is necessary, matter is not the kernel, it is not the fundament, it is not a settled abode so that events and perfections may be affixed to it or constructed on it. Rather, it is a shell prepared to be split, rent, dissolved; it is a husk, it is froth, it is a form.
Consider the following: a creature so minute it can only be seen with a microscope has such acute senses it can hear its friend’s voice, and see its sustenance; it has extremely sensitive and sharp senses. This demonstrates that the effects of life increase and the light of the spirit intensifies in proportion to the reducing and refining of matter. It is as though the more matter is refined and the more we become distanced from our material existences, the closer we draw to the world of the spirit, the world of life, and the world of consciousness; and the more intensely the heat of the spirit and the light of life are manifested.
Is it therefore at all possible that there should be this many distillations of life, consciousness, and spirit within this veil of materiality, and that the inner world which is beyond this veil should not be full of conscious beings and beings with spirits? Is it at all possible that the sources of these numberless distillations, flashes, and fruits of meaning, spirit, life and the truth apparent in this material existence in the Manifest World should be ascribed only to matter and the motion of matter, and be explained by it?
God forbid! Absolutely not! These innumerable distillations and flashes demonstrate that this material and manifest world is but a lace veil strewn over the inner and spirit worlds.
salaam/shalom/shanti/la paz/peace
reply
- Feature
- Like
I think claiming that Religion is wrong is just as assuming as saying religion is right. When you assert that there is "no absolute truth" you are stating an absolute. Its a not a sound statement, where as saying "there is absolute truth" is, at the very least, not contradictory.
reply
The focus of most of the answers here appears to be on finding a spirituality without religion, or pushing aside religion to arrive at God.
- Feature
- Like
The focus of most of the answers here appears to be on finding a spirituality without religion, or pushing aside religion to arrive at God.
What most here do not point out is how God can use anything God wants to reach any person, at any time, in any culture, and that, according to most cultures, God in fact has done this. God can reach the Jewish woman in back of the synagogue or the Catholic man in a desert place with a rosary. God can be with the Muslim facing Mecca and be there five times a day for that person. The presence of God isn't really up to us, is it?
The criticisms are that religion as a reified thing, a relationship that is, of necessity, dead, and something called "spirituality" is more alive. Hm. It seems to me that God and what God does and who God is should be the ultimate question. Looking down the nose at religious people is rather shallow when one considers how presumptious it is to define a relationship for others: I would not walk up to a married couple, together for fifty years, and without knowing anything about them except that tell them they must be very shallow, narrow-minded people to have remained with one person for so long. Who gets to tell God on this website who God must relate with and how God must relate to them and for how long? The anti-religion camp will declare over and over that theirs is the pure way, but is it really? Maybe God thinks otherwise.
The whole idea of this webiste is that there is a collective wisdom out there, and with it collectives of people who have shared and bear witness to a certain experience of God's acting and speaking in their lives. It makes me nervous when people lump all of these experiences together in order to dismiss them. I don't think God does that. God actually uses cultures and experiences and shared stories and prayers to bring people closer to Heaven and peace.
What this thread shows is that people are not interested in God here at all, or what God has been up to for the last several thousands of years, what God has been doing and does and says, in other words. God speaks God's words in people, uses their words and cultures and thoughts to make the divine presence and love known to them, and people pass this on.
This thread, for the most part, is a group of comments looking down the nose at this particular activity on the part of God for the sake of dismissing most of the religious experiences of the human race.
Weird.
reply
- Feature
- Like
In order to answer that question, the terms "religion" and "spirituality" need to be defined within the context of the question. Otherwise miscommunication on the subject will be rampant even when undetected. This can result in, for example, two people arguing against each other when, in reality they are in agreement. Conversely, two people might appear to agree when, actually, they disagree.
reply
- Feature
- Like
Spirituality is another word for "ill believe whatever seems good to me". Is truth like that? Is the answer to 2 + 2 whatever we want? In other words, do you think you get to tell God who He is?
reply
the end of religion is the beginning of sprituality
- Feature
- Like
the end of religion is the beginning of sprituality
the end of sprituality is the beginning of reality
the end of reality is ideal bliss
when that too is gone
we have reached the destination
reply
- Feature
- Like
religion as an organized belief is already dead. Those of us who are lost, confused and refuse to spiritually awaken within ourselves keep the illusion alive. "A truly religious human being does not belong to any religion."
reply
while I sometimes wish religion would go away, declaring it something we "need" to destroy would make me the world's biggest hypocrite, an evangelical non-believer if you will
- Feature
- Like
while I sometimes wish religion would go away, declaring it something we "need" to destroy would make me the world's biggest hypocrite, an evangelical non-believer if you will
I actually love seeing others openly practice their religion because I love freedom so much and seeing others do what they want with theirs.
reply
- Feature
- Like
Let me counter with a question: is religion really necessary for people to be (or become) spiritual? Or is religion just an excuse? Or an obstacle?
reply
No, I don't believe religions have to get destroyed, but dogma and "my way is better than yours" attitudes do. Religion does more than give people faith and hope. It's a way of explaining the currently unexplainable, and it has a purpose. It's purpose is also to promote peaceful coexistence in the world. Islam included.
- Feature
- Like
No, I don't believe religions have to get destroyed, but dogma and "my way is better than yours" attitudes do. Religion does more than give people faith and hope. It's a way of explaining the currently unexplainable, and it has a purpose. It's purpose is also to promote peaceful coexistence in the world. Islam included.
Everyone is entitled to his/her beliefs and trying to shove a differing belief down someones throat thru violence has no place.. As long as people can live peacefully in co-existence, religion does not need to be destroyed.
reply
- Feature
- Like
The finger pointing to the moon is not the moon. However, without the finger pointing the way, you may never see the moon.
reply
Religion is a label that denotes a group of ideas and beliefs which in turn leave an impression on whomever is reading the question and is based on his/her experience with Religion or lack there of. People just need to open their eyes to the world around them and inside of themselves, and realize they are masters of their own story not the other way around where they are lost in the hypnotic conceptualized version of the life they "think" they live. For a man to free himself he must first know that he is in prison. This prison has no bars or walls and is impossible to break out from because it is your own believing you are the voice that talks to you in your head and this unquenching thirst for more. More things, more money, more attention, more fame and recognition, more more more until there is nothing left but an organic automaton approval junkie with no living spark left. Once a man sees the edges of his prison he will do anything to go back to sleep and return to the dreamworld which is why he fell asleep in the first place. But like a virus an idea is very catching and once the mind grabs hold it will try to understand the question by breaking it down into positive and negative components and weighing them out to some conclusion which is "at best" relatively true. One finally becomes desperate enough to seek out another who has already broken out and pleads with them to show them how. Sometimes the person asked really does knows the way out and offers assistance and the battle for your own freedom truly begins. It finally becomes apparent that what you have been studying and attempt thru very peculiar tasks and ways of thinking is a sort of path or way out of the mental bondage your ego has subjected you to all of your life. Now you actively fight for your real consciousness and all the holy books you ever laid eyes on now, have much more to say and reveal. They have eyes but cannot see....what does this passage really mean?.....sleep not for you know not the time....another scripture from the most dubiously rewritten book of all time. The TRUTH is always out there in plain sight we just choose to not see it. Religion is a very old idea that had some real meaning and still can have some meaning if one knows how to read it and understand it's true knowledge.
- Feature
- Like
Religion is a label that denotes a group of ideas and beliefs which in turn leave an impression on whomever is reading the question and is based on his/her experience with Religion or lack there of. People just need to open their eyes to the world around them and inside of themselves, and realize they are masters of their own story not the other way around where they are lost in the hypnotic conceptualized version of the life they "think" they live. For a man to free himself he must first know that he is in prison. This prison has no bars or walls and is impossible to break out from because it is your own believing you are the voice that talks to you in your head and this unquenching thirst for more. More things, more money, more attention, more fame and recognition, more more more until there is nothing left but an organic automaton approval junkie with no living spark left. Once a man sees the edges of his prison he will do anything to go back to sleep and return to the dreamworld which is why he fell asleep in the first place. But like a virus an idea is very catching and once the mind grabs hold it will try to understand the question by breaking it down into positive and negative components and weighing them out to some conclusion which is "at best" relatively true. One finally becomes desperate enough to seek out another who has already broken out and pleads with them to show them how. Sometimes the person asked really does knows the way out and offers assistance and the battle for your own freedom truly begins. It finally becomes apparent that what you have been studying and attempt thru very peculiar tasks and ways of thinking is a sort of path or way out of the mental bondage your ego has subjected you to all of your life. Now you actively fight for your real consciousness and all the holy books you ever laid eyes on now, have much more to say and reveal. They have eyes but cannot see....what does this passage really mean?.....sleep not for you know not the time....another scripture from the most dubiously rewritten book of all time. The TRUTH is always out there in plain sight we just choose to not see it. Religion is a very old idea that had some real meaning and still can have some meaning if one knows how to read it and understand it's true knowledge.
This was a long winded way to answer your question but I hope it answers it in a meaningful way...
When I let go of what I am.... I become what I might be Lao Tzu
reply
The confusion here is that people keep equating "organized religion" with "religion." The only problem I have with spirituality is that it lacks the communal aspect. Those that would reply that spirituality can be communal, I hate to tell you, but you have a religion. I wouldn't mind seeing the old religions go away (or at least, transform significantly) but I would hate to see the end of religion (and doubt it any way.)
- Feature
- Like
The confusion here is that people keep equating "organized religion" with "religion." The only problem I have with spirituality is that it lacks the communal aspect. Those that would reply that spirituality can be communal, I hate to tell you, but you have a religion. I wouldn't mind seeing the old religions go away (or at least, transform significantly) but I would hate to see the end of religion (and doubt it any way.)
I have been studying the philosophy and psychology or religion for most of my life, and the lay idea of what it is can be very annoying. Please read more, (William James is a great start) rather than assuming all religion is Christianity, Islam or Judaism. (Signed, a shamanic practitioner who loves Jesus.)
reply
- Feature
- Like
Spirituality means finding a greater purpose in life, and your place in the universe. Religion is belief system with traditional customs and beliefs. The two can very much coexist. I still question the religious beliefs I was raised with, but I know I have a higher purpose. And the true is same for my devout friends.
reply
- Feature
- Like
I think that the two can co-exist. spirituality is being comfortable with your place in the universe. Religion is a belief system. As long as they respect each other all isgood.
reply
Where is the evidence that supports any particular philosophy or lifestyle choice? When religions dominated the world, those with authority caused the senseless deaths of millions of innocent people, but with science and art we have the same or even more cause and means to senselessly destroy ourselves en masse, it's just a bit more colorful and we're much more aware of it as it happens.
- Feature
- Like
Where is the evidence that supports any particular philosophy or lifestyle choice? When religions dominated the world, those with authority caused the senseless deaths of millions of innocent people, but with science and art we have the same or even more cause and means to senselessly destroy ourselves en masse, it's just a bit more colorful and we're much more aware of it as it happens.
The human condition will probably improve when humans have more compassion for one another. Compassion often comes from frequency of passion, which comes from greater frequency of physical intimacy ... logically we should promote more frequent occurrence of physical intimacy events and that will ultimately lead people to become more compassionate and result in an improvement in the human condition.
Just say "yes" to a higher frequency of safe sex in order to improve the human condition.
reply
- Feature
- Like
To answer this question, I think we must examine religion, not as a whole, but by its individual parts. Religion can be both vile and beautiful. It is vile when it devolves into exclusion and beautiful when it brings people closer together. Is the latter even religion, or merely an artifact of human organization? Could the vileness be similar, where warped and bitter individual spirituality finds congregation?
reply
Spirituality begins within oneself, and the first step is to accept that not all people believe in the same things, and that's ok, there are no wrong answers when it comes to personal spirituality. The problem is not religion, the problem is intolerance of views that are not like your own. Also, while religion can "Advise" you to be wary of "infidels/nonbelievers/sinners", you must make the decision to actively engage or avoid them. It's your choice, not an infallible mandate. If we can show people that it is possible to live peacefully alongside one another regardless of belief, the "problems" we see with religion will evaporate.
- Feature
- Like
Spirituality begins within oneself, and the first step is to accept that not all people believe in the same things, and that's ok, there are no wrong answers when it comes to personal spirituality. The problem is not religion, the problem is intolerance of views that are not like your own. Also, while religion can "Advise" you to be wary of "infidels/nonbelievers/sinners", you must make the decision to actively engage or avoid them. It's your choice, not an infallible mandate. If we can show people that it is possible to live peacefully alongside one another regardless of belief, the "problems" we see with religion will evaporate.
But yeah, scientific inquiry and advancement and faith and spirituality can coexist just fine, possible even help each other. But first people must be able to accept that it's ok to have a different opinion.
reply
I love what ArtOfLife says below. We cannot forge our way into the future by forgetting the past.
- Feature
- Like
I love what ArtOfLife says below. We cannot forge our way into the future by forgetting the past.
Religion has been a fundamental part of us for as long as words have been written on paper; for as long as pictographs were etched on cave wall. Religion is the quest to prove ourselves worthy of what has been freely given; our feeble attempt to buy that which is free. And whether it has God as a fixture or just our own naked and trembling selves trying to stand on the crumbling imperfections of our own Humanity, it is the exact same process:
The child trying to prove the worth that they have never had to.
I do throw down on religion a lot; mainly because of the silly twists it has taken throughout History.
But ArtOfLife is right. It is not to be forgotten or thrown out. It is not the scrawling of a child who is at least trying . . . that we say is garbage and put out at the curb instead of up on the fridge.
We have been trying -- desperately trying -- to do something with religion: whether it be a fixture of God or a fixture of just us. Trying to do something futile.
To grow and go onto the next step we should not throw it out -- but rather hang it on the fridge. Even if it's currently just ghastly scribbles. It means something. To say it means nothing, is to say the efforts of the child mean nothing. It's to say they mean nothing.
It's to say we mean nothing.
And that's no safe or sane way to step forth into tomorrow.
Thanks ArtOfLife, for what you shared.
reply
- Feature
- Like
religion & spirituality are both rooted in faith and must be exposed as utterly detrimental to humanity. Both wholly misrepresent the origin of humanity and the universe that spawned us. This forces them to be dogmatic as reality does not reflect the claims made by faith and as such only human authority validates it via its attempts to change reality to match the unfalsifiable claims made, resulting in death, waste, & oppression. The only meaningful difference between religion & spirituality is the forces that spawned them, the former being much more authoritative and more blatantly oppressive and violent. However they very much share the core detriment of abandoning empiricism and rationality. Both make the claim that the human mind is innately incapable of understanding our physical universe without the assistance of some "higher" plane/being whom, by definition, could not possibly exist in our universe & as such have no perceivable or relevant effect on it
reply
Forgetting the past is not the way forward.
- Feature
- Like
Forgetting the past is not the way forward.
In a lot of ways humanity has lost some of the spirituality that it had in the past. I'm not saying that everything was perfect back in the day, but we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water. In fact we need to go backwards and remember what we forgot before we can move forward.
Religion is meant to be a guide toward spirituality. It has been somewhat corrupted, but not irreversibly. In the words of Jesus ""Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill."
reply
- Feature
- Like
I don 't know what is meant by spirituality. A combination of kindness, empathy, generosity, love of nature? European Medieval and Renaissance art was almost entirely inspired by religion. Now art is regulated and limited in certain fundamentalist countries, true. Maybe RS would censor it. Science is compatible with religion, with many qualifications. The myth, not theory, of Creationism and teaching it as an alternative to the "theory" of evolution. Evangelism and fundamentalism (a literal interpretation of a bible). The devaluation of a liberal and scientific education by some fundamentalists (Jewish, Christian, Muslim), who sometimes substitute religious training. Many people wish to believe there is life after death, though, and that belief interferes little with science, except perhaps among Christian Scientists.
reply
- Feature
- Like
I believe that religion is an incredibly important aspect of our human society. As such, I do believe that we need to stop using it as a prop for our own stupidity and selfish mistakes. I know people who are deeply spiritual, and they are also deeply religious (they are actually monks). If people can search through the religion and find the spirituality in the religion; that is easy. The most important part is being able to translate that spirituality into yourself, and onto your life. Sometimes, you never stop searching, but the journey to get there can be just as powerful as the end result
reply
- Feature
- Like
I do believe that some aspects of spirituality could be revised if people would escape common religions that have flourished for hundreds of years. There are many people that believe that they have some sort of spirituality that isn't often defined within their respective religion (IE I'm Christian, but don't feel as though I have to attend Church to be saved, I have a personal connection with God/Jesus and have accepted Jesus as my Lord and savior). As far as improving science, art, and the human condition by forgetting religion, there are many things that religion does that acts as a survival tool, improving communities, bring people together to help each other, etc etc. Of course, the negative aspects of the religious atrocities over the millenia stick out more than the positive aspects.
reply
- Feature
- Like
Destroyed? No. But the starting point should be common sense, then introduce one's specific religion, then balance it with others religious viewpoints, it's the willing abdication of common sense that causes stalemates and conflicts. Where there is common sense, there is spirituality, science, art, etc but without it, when religion is the starting point, it's too easy for someone to blind themselves to all the possibilities available because it's filtered through the lens of religious doctrine.
reply
My experience is that " The map is not the territory " .
- Feature
- Like
My experience is that " The map is not the territory " .
Saying this , I would say that the religions are maps ( for personal hope , growth and harmony with ones fellow ) and exploring the territory is governed by the attitude of spirituality .
Also , following a certain religion , in my opinion , does not signal that one has " arrived " , rather it signals that one has begun exploring a different reality , testing spiritual principles-exploring the validity of them in personal experiences and feedback with others .
There is no problem really with the differences between agnostics , atheists , deists , "religionists " and any other " ists " as we are all following our own personal and wholly by definition legitimate paths .
reply
My Baha'i friends often use the metaphor that science and religion are like the two wings of a bird and that the bird can't really soar with only one. It's a nice metaphor but ultimately doesn't work for me personally. Science is about proof and religion is about faith. Faith is to believe without knowing for sure, and science is about knowing for sure and - when they don't know for sure - put forth theories that can be tested. The Vatican's own Father Coyne (Astronomer, Scientist) said emphatically that there is no science in the Bible at all. So religion should stay out of the whole debate on how the world was created. As the Vatican's Reginald Foster said, the Bible is little more than "nice stories."
- Feature
- Like
My Baha'i friends often use the metaphor that science and religion are like the two wings of a bird and that the bird can't really soar with only one. It's a nice metaphor but ultimately doesn't work for me personally. Science is about proof and religion is about faith. Faith is to believe without knowing for sure, and science is about knowing for sure and - when they don't know for sure - put forth theories that can be tested. The Vatican's own Father Coyne (Astronomer, Scientist) said emphatically that there is no science in the Bible at all. So religion should stay out of the whole debate on how the world was created. As the Vatican's Reginald Foster said, the Bible is little more than "nice stories."
We're not talking about two wings on a bird, we're talking about two entirely different birds.
Science does little to nothing for our spirituality, however, so if I may change the metaphor to "spirutuality" rather than religion THEN it works better for me.
The problem with religion is that it is a frozen moment in time and it's most orthodox believers think that we should go no further. This is why many Islamic societies are stuck in the 8th Century and why many Christians are stuck in the 19th... and some Christians are stuck in the 1st!
Religion is all about rules and - in most faiths - you are not allowed to question them. (With a nod to Baha'is and Unitarians who insist that you ask questions and therefore I am not including them in this)
The Amish are not allowed zippers or electricity because they are not mentioned in the Bible.
Because of the Old Testament you have idiots holding up signs proclaiming that "God hates f**s" which tells me they didn't read their New Testament.
Because of religion you have people willing to strap on suicide vests and do terrible things - hey, 72 virgins is 72 virgins!
The Koran says women should dress modestly and somehow that got interpreted as "women should be wrapped up head to toe in a beekeeper costume."
The Unitarians have it right. No real rules. Find a peaceful way to connect to the universe and to nourish your spirit and if it works for you, go for it. Do no harm to others, go in peace and leave the world better than you found it. If I was forced to join a religion it would be that one because it's so unlike a religion at all. People don't read holy books and say "well, that's how it was back then" they read holy books and say "this is how it should be forever."
And THAT is why religion has to go for the human conditin to be improved.
reply
- Feature
- Like
The secret is to balance reason with revelation. Just reason with no revelation and you get the 1950's coarse materialism (and atom bombs, world wars, etc.). Just revelation without reason and you get all the craziness that's happened in the name of God and still happens all over the world. Srila Prabhupada, the founder of the Hare Krishna Movement in the West said, "[Krishna consciousness] is a science. Religion means a kind of faith. It is not faith. It is a science. Science must be based on logic and philosophy. Science means that. And religion means sometimes sentiments. So religion without philosophy is sentiment, and philosophy without religion is mental speculation. Both must be combined. Then it is perfect. You cannot have religion without philosophy. That is sentiment, fanaticism. And if you simply take philosophy without religion, without sense of God, this is mental speculation. So religion must be on the basis of science and logic. That is first-class religion."
reply
- Feature
- Like
I don't think religion needs to be destroyed. Supernaturalism, on the other hand, we could do without these days.
reply
It's interesting that so many people who are opposed to "religion" seem to think that it is a one time thing that hasn't changed since the Bronze Age.
- Feature
- Like
It's interesting that so many people who are opposed to "religion" seem to think that it is a one time thing that hasn't changed since the Bronze Age.
I believe that religion (not Christianity; there is a big difference) is the best hope for humanity to flourish, and it will never be forgotten.
reply
People are not that smart they will always need something to follow.
- Feature
- Like
People are not that smart they will always need something to follow.
Our knowledge maybe increasing but our wisdom has gone down the toilet.
Thats what knowledge is, knowing something you never have to experience.
And exactly how would spirituality make us better people or even happy people?
reply
- Feature
- Like
Religion, in my opinion, is a weed. It is not prevalent in a well tended garden. So we make our garden inhospitable to weeds, and we solve the problem. This will require a greater emphasis on education, and a great amount of care given to the least of our brothers, to elevate us all. As it stands, religion is splintering and disintegrating around us, but I imagine that religion is the klaxon of oppression, and can never truly be done away with. If the undoing of religious thinking is not possible, then I will settle for the undoing of oppression.
reply
I think that when people begin to understand that religion is less about a relationship with God and more about a relationship with other people (fitting within a cultural environment); the sooner we may find a heaven right here on Earth.
- Feature
- Like
I think that when people begin to understand that religion is less about a relationship with God and more about a relationship with other people (fitting within a cultural environment); the sooner we may find a heaven right here on Earth.
If it were possible to create a shared, global culture; that would in some form be a revised type of religion where EVERYone is on the same page; there might be a possibility of religion providing productive direction but, we're people first. Few people are able to look at the big picture when immediate needs associated with survival take precedence.
Who leads the way in determining that paradigm shift or more importantly, who would follow? Many have tried to lead and the eveidence is clear that many people take the easy route of response. To criticize rather than offer alternatives.
My culture introduced me to the teachings of Jesus and it took me a long time to stop looking at those teachings with the perspective of focussing on what was wrong with them. When I experimented with a shift, I found a very small handhold but it was an amazingly simple yet equally secure grip. With the realisation of an incredibly small point it allowed me to accept more things with an open mind.
The brain is an amazing device and we can easily convince ourselves of things that are not true. If we can do that; we can also convince ourselves THAT things are not true. That brings us to faith. Am I happier with faith or without it? Is it true faith or superficial?
We have one inevitable certainty. Death. Death should be the motivator that illustrates to us that we need to make a choice of how we want to be happy while we can. Science is bringing us closer to the place where we may not have that motivator and what will that accomplish? Possibly just more of what we have now and that, in my opinion, is an inability to balance our resources as we are primarily motivated by self interest...and there I go...identifying the negative when I should be religiously pursuing the opposite.
reply
- Feature
- Like
Forgotten? Maybe not.... but adapted, yes.... to allow it to evolve as we humans evolve, yes.
reply
- Feature
- Like
Let's leave destruction to Shiva (metaphorically). Instead let's try to evolve and let the booster rockets fall where they may.
reply
Honestly I wouldn't know because religion is the source of hope for many many people...mankind made huge progress that coexisted with religion for hundreds of years...but on the other side, the representatives of religions have been opposing against the progress because too strict in their orthodoxy (e.g. the Catholic Church vs Galileo Galilei: they threatened to burn him if he didn't refuse the validity of his scientific discoveries and accepted the "traditional" vision of the world at the center of the universe).
- Feature
- Like
Honestly I wouldn't know because religion is the source of hope for many many people...mankind made huge progress that coexisted with religion for hundreds of years...but on the other side, the representatives of religions have been opposing against the progress because too strict in their orthodoxy (e.g. the Catholic Church vs Galileo Galilei: they threatened to burn him if he didn't refuse the validity of his scientific discoveries and accepted the "traditional" vision of the world at the center of the universe).
So I guess that only a part of religion should be forgotten: the conservative part, the part that denies the future and trusts only in the past, the part that is against progress and in favour of the old ways (that can be erroneous).
BUT let's not forget that many good teachings come from every religion, be it Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Induism or whatever...there is always a BUT.
Yours is a very good question, that left a big question mark in my head :)
Hope I helped
Shalom
reply
I was just reading Stenger's talk about this: "I want to urge those of you who are not scientists to try to convince those who are to stop pussyfooting around with religion and confront the reality of what it is and always has been -- a blight on humanity that has hindered our progress for millennia and now threatens our very existence."
- Feature
- Like
