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applegrass

- 2 years ago

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So, SP Crew... Is this a Baha'i site, or isn't it?

Was perusing the threads, and a post from @TutherBrother (below) perturbed the bee in me bonnet. The FAQ page says: "we don't believe in censoring ideas or conversation. We just want to make sure that SoulPancake is a safe space for everyone to wrestle with Life's Big Questions."
So why did SP monitor/silence a group of people (whom Baha'i 'must' shun)? Does that everyone need an * behind it? If SP was a "Baha'i" forum, I could understand. But y'all have repeatedly said that it isn't. Seems like belief-based censorship to me. Care to explain?

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Since Alison mentions the Reform Bahai Faith, let me say that anyone interested in know more about it might find the following pages helpful:

About the Reform Bahai Faith
http://www.reformbahai.org/about.html

Abdu'l-Baha's Covenant
http://www.reformbahai.org/Covenant.html

An Analysis of Abdul-Baha's 1912 Authentic Covenant
http://www.reformbahai.org/Covenant_comments.html

Bahai regards.

Ooh controversy!

I'm guessing that Dwight (or whatever his reality name is) feels duty-bound as a "Baha'i in Good Standing" to shun opposing groups, so creating an open forum is a problematic venture. If his site were to be interpreted to be giving voice to the opposition, that could make life difficult for him.

How did you come in contact with Unitarian Baha'is? I am interested in your «personal» story, how did you convert to the Unitarian Baha'i Faith.

For myself, I became a member of the Haifa based Baha'i group in 1992, after going to few firesides. In the same year appeared an add in a local newspaper about the Orthodox Baha'is. From time to time, I read the website www.bahai-guardian.com and www.orthodoxbahai.com, but didn't understood much about the arguments of the continuing Guardianship defended by Mason Remey and Joel Bray Marangella. It was during an usenet discussion in talk.religion.bahai that Frank Schlatter informed me about the illegal dissolution by one Hand of the Cause of the Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of France which accepted Mason Remey as second Guardian.

Since, I became an ardent advocate of the Orthodox Baha'i Faith.

Isn't. I thought this was a place for all thinking people, not just Baha'i.

OK. I won't say this is good news because it reflects poorly on YOU!

But I did just discover where you got this stupid "kkk and n**i" thing you were accusine ME of saying.

It turns out that Amazon sells Miller's anti-Baha'i book, and in one of the reviews of it on that site, a THIRD PARTY--NOT ME--makes this statement! What makes your accusing me of it is that not only do I not know and have never met or conversed with this person, but his name isn't even remotely similar to mine!

So you're simply completely wrong when you attribute ANY of that statement to me!

I did indeed point out the nature of Miller's rather sneaky attack on the Faith, but not in any way remotely approaching that sort of vocabulary!

Nor did or do I advocate using such terminology in reviews of the book (or elsewhere, for that matter)!

So now that this is clarified, I trust we can drop the accusation as--to describe it in the most charitable terms possible--simply incorrect.

Peace, Bruce

My friends, I have to go study now but I thought I'd share this video first by our very own Devon Gundry :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_g21wl48AY

Warm regards.

Having just encountered the polemic which another individual here posted condemning the book review I just mentioned and its author, I would encourage all and sundry to read the full article (which I just offered to those who request it from me) and judge for yourselves!

It really isn't necessary (or desirable) to take my word for any of this, or anyone else's, either.

Peace, Bruce

Words are never "just words." If that were truly so, then there would be no point in writing or speaking anything. They all have meanings and are ways for us to express thoughts and feelings, so how can they be “just words”? With words, a speaker can reach into one's soul, imprinting searing, permanent scars. With words, a speaker can incite individuals to insurrection or vigilantism. Words have the ability to create, institutionalize and mandate discriminatory laws and practices. Words are never just words — they are the most powerful tools we have to communicate ourselves to the world. To use them as if there aren’t consequences is hurtful to those they offend.

If words were "just words," there would be no court case between Wilmette and the Orthodox Bahá’ís:

http://www.truebahai.com/2009/02/the-true-colors-of-wilmette-nsa-come-out-under-questioning-by-court-of-appeals.html

One cannot build unity when one participates in the praxis of exclusion. The Unitarian Bahá’í ethos is one of inclusion: we are a new movement that welcomes all regardless of race, ethnicity, nationality, language, religion, gender, sexual orientation, affectional behavior, physical or mental disability, social or economic class, etc. The initial attempt of this new movement to put the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh into practice is to promote unity through embracing an ethos of inclusion. Members aren't asked to abandon their life partners or their religious affiliation: we don't seek to destroy in the name of religious law, we seek to build for the sake of unity across all social and religious divisions. This is what this very new movement has actually started doing in the world.

Who knows what the future will hold? If \Wilmette can overcome its litigious nature and just "live and let live" (unlikely, I know), then the UBA might actually be able to get on with the business of building unity without having to worry about being sued into the ground by a religious organization for which words are (allegedly) "just words."

Team SP

@applegrass Thanks for the earlier shout out and big thanks for starting such an interesting conversation. For the record, for the future, I representing Jena, when I type here and not Jena of the BrainLab (insert Tarzan sound).

What really intrigues me about this thread is how the use of language causes misunderstandings. I have no real clue, but imagine the emails between @TutherBrother and @devongundry like this: T'bro writes there are CB's posting offensive things. DG reads 'really bad things have been posted', confirms, deletes. T'bro naturally assumes the word 'CB' was fundamental, whereas for DG it appears it was not... and here we find ourselves.

Any chance that the pedophile issue between @dancingplatypus and @CragAntler is also rooted in a "use of language" misunderstanding?

consists = consensus sigh

dear beloveds, to the all. if i don't belong here i don't belong anywhere.. i am not one faith. nor am i one with all faiths.... i am one in my faith. i am here not to change anyone, but to be a voice with everyone. i sent my world here to explore who they say they are... when one is lost, or hungry, a need to connect with the mind, heart, spirit of the world i have found it here.. now to say that is not the purpose of this website, creates sadness in my spirit.... an open ended place like life is what i believed had happen, and control is limited like death. please tell in your words, what is the outcome so i can see clearly what to do..........

Reading the continued posts since I left this morning, truly, makes me sad. We are in a very strange spot. I've been coming here for about 4 months and have grown such a tremendous affection for so many of the regular members. It would appear they are leaving in droves.

I have no doubt that SP will continue and, perhaps, the founders will feel no loss because of its growing popularity, but I can't help but feel that its original intention has been diluted or lost in some manner. Of course, this is only my own personal bias, but there it is.

To those of you who have been constant, whether beloved or annoying as all get out..... thanks for an amazing experience. I will be sad to see many of you go (others, I would rejoice ;-}. I guess now, we'll see.

Big hugs to all. xoxo

Holy guacamole and sweet salsa verde!
Thanks to everyone... for your thoughts, opinions, perspectives, and random bits of who-ha (a personal fav)... both 'official' and not. It's greatly appreciated, all of it (at least from this side of the screen).

I understand, and absolutely sympathise, with the the several calls to 'put the matter behind us' or 'put the genie back in the bottle.' I really struggled yesterday with whether or not to breech this subject. Because, perhaps contrary to what my 'persona' on SP would indicate, I'm really not a fan of conflict, either; in 3-D land, I usually avoid it like the plague.

But the more I thought/stewed about this issue, the more I saw my thinking swerve into an irrational, destructive tailspin. So... eventually here's what the inner alchemy produced (for me): the golden rule, coating both sides of SP minted coin. Would I feel discriminated against if I was censored/barred from an 'everyone' welcome site because my beliefs/religion/ideas were deemed heretical or hateful by another (more popular/vocal) religious group? And also, would I be upset if someone assumed I took unreasonable or discriminatory actions against someone else, without bothering to ask about it first? And the answer to both of these questions was an unqualified "Ayup.'"

So anyway... this seemed like a 'fair' way give everyone an opportunity to speak their minds and offer some insight/clarity to this (imo) very important issue. I donno. Would like to think we're all mature enough on here to examine what's what, sort out the wheat from the chafe, and make our own judgement calls about the various assertions/ideas/beliefs expressed on SP. I guess @TutherBrother 's post struck a chord with me, because it indicated perhaps not all ideas get a fair gleaning, merely because of a (specific) religious doctrine. And if that indeed was(or is) a factor in determining which posts get censored and which don't, I'd like to know (and methinks many other SPers would as well...tho obviously, I can only speak for myself).

And tho this particular issue still seems very much in the muddled 'grey' hues for me personally, I sincerely echo all the props and kuddos to the SP team for a job well done. I do notice and appreciate all the time, work, and love you ( @soulpancake , @JenaNotJameson , @gloriz , @Aviv , @sirmitchell , @devongundry ... and other, more stealthy/ninja partners) put in so I can be part of this fabulous community, filled with both soul and byte (sorry, couldn't resist). And please trust me... if I didn't love you guys (or this site) so much... I wouldn't nearly be such a freakin' hard-a*s. Please keep up the good work. I'm just playing my 'part' (such as it is) to make this space a little better and a little brighter, too.
Lots of (occasionally hard-assed) love, all.

I have posted many responses on this forum. See for example this particular question:

http://www.soulpancake.com/question/25465/254929/bahai-and-homosexuality.html

The topics covered in my responses there run the gamut from homosexuality to Covenant-breakers to the mainstream Bahá’í assertion (and I stress the word "assertion") that "there is only one Bahá’í faith and this is how it will remain." To their credit, this site's operators allowed the discussion to continue for quite some time. At no point did I ever feel censored or threatened by the site's operators. And yes, I currently belong to an independent Bahá’í community that is considered "in violation of the Covenant" (in my opinion, a deeply dysfunctional concept in this day and age). Open dialogue is essential to the exchange of information and experiences on different topics and emerging issues; I hope this forum will continue to provide support for us to do that in educated, informed and respectful ways.

Hmmmmmmmmm. Well I've just read all the responses below and find the whole thing quite unsettling. There is an edge to SP, which I have noticed for several weeks now. Perhaps this is a way to let off some steam, or perhaps it will implode. I'm hoping for the former, but have been spending much less time here lately because of it.

I believe that nothing should be censored. As members, we can choose which threads to read, post on or ignore. If an inside crew is monitoring and deciding what is or isn't appropriate, I feel that's a slippery slope. By whose parameters do they decide? What is offensive to one, may be quite benign to another.

For example: below BruceDLimber has chastised Wolfson for swearing in one of his posts, claiming this would be cause for censorship. If that were the case, myself and probably more than half the members would leave. Where is the actual line?

idk. I guess we'll all have to see how it goes from here.

Looks like I missed the shootout, but after reading everything posted below, I had to throw in:

I would like to point out that I enjoyed the use of the moniker "T'Bro" in reference to @TutherBrother . It makes him sound like a pop star.

Team SP

Hey everyone,

This is one of the reasons we created SoulPancake -- the open dialogue and debate that's happening here is great. And the topic of censorship is a potent one. We certainly don't censor or even have the bandwidth to regulate every post on the site. But we do get hundreds of emails from users with complaints, concerns, rants, and all sorts of other passionate responses and opinions every month. It is not our place to judge the motivations behind the emails, only to ensure that what they are referencing is not a violation of our terms of service or any other city, state, or federal law.

Ultimately, we have to keep things legit in accordance with our terms of service. So, for example, if someone creates an account and claims to be a representative of Coca-Cola, and is not, we will remove their account. If someone claims to be Jodie Sweetin (yep, Ms. Stephanie Tanner from Full House), and they are not, we will remove their account. And any time a user or outside party brings to our attention any other similar violation -- impersonation, misrepresentation, libel, defamation of character, unlawful use of intellectual property, etc. -- we carefully verify the infringement and then remove this content and/or user.

We try very hard to deal with all the complaints in a logical, unbiased way with our goal being to keep the conversation open, and not spiteful. From time to time, we have removed content from users that seemed to be offensive, inflammatory, or destructive. We've removed porn, racist posts, ads, and blatant insults. After all, we ask everyone upfront not to hit below the belt. We have to draw the line somewhere... and figuring out that line is a daily learning process. And of course, there is plenty that has slipped past us because it went unreported.

We want the community to retain its integrity. And the actions we take are only done so with extreme caution and after thorough investigation. We're dedicated to open, honest dialogue, and we absolutely want all to feel welcome at SoulPancake. But we also want to ensure that the posts remain a civil discourse about Life's Big Questions and the human experience.

Hope that helps clear things up.

The SoulPancake team

Team SP

This thread is so intense. Quick, someone censor it! ;)

As do we.

Since a number of folks here obviously have trouble with its spelling, kindly permit me to explain the background of the word "Baha'i" in hopes that this will help!:

"Baha" simply means "glory" or "splendor."

And the suffix forms the adjective, so that "Baha'i" means "of Glory."

(For the record, the apostrophe is the transliteration of a letter that alters the pronunciation of the word.)

We lazy Americans generally simply say "ba-HIGH," although technically the correct pronunciation is "Ba-HA-ee."

Oh--and Chris, no, this isn't a specifically religious forum. Please note that you're most welcome here, and we're glad you've joined SP and are posting to the rest of us! :-)

All the best, :-)

Bruce

@applegrass Minneapolis, MN

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SoulPancake

applegrass

So, SP Crew... Is this a Baha'i site, or isn't it?

1912AuthenticCovenant

kaweah

martin_lavallee

nogoodanswers

Isn't. I thought this was a place for all thinking people, not just Baha'i.

BruceDLimber

UDRF

My friends, I have to go study now but I thought I'd share this video first by our very own Devon Gundry :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_g21wl48AY

Warm regards.

BruceDLimber

Alison

JenaNotJameson

applegrass

consists = consensus sigh

littlehart

ruthiebg

applegrass

Alison

ruthiebg

rachelhduncan

Looks like I missed the shootout, but after reading everything posted below, I had to throw in:

I would like to point out that I enjoyed the use of the moniker "T'Bro" in reference to @TutherBrother . It makes him sound like a pop star.

SoulPancake

JenaNotJameson

This thread is so intense. Quick, someone censor it! ;)

Wolfson

As do we.

BruceDLimber

So, SP Crew... Is this a Baha'i site, or isn't it?

Isn't. I thought this was a place for all thinking people, not just Baha'i.

My friends, I have to go study now but I thought I'd share this video first by our very own Devon Gundry :)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_g21wl48AYWarm regards.

consists = consensus *sigh*

Looks like I missed the shootout, but after reading everything posted below, I had to throw in: I would like to point out that I enjoyed the use of the moniker "T'Bro" in reference to @TutherBrother . It makes him sound like a pop star.

This thread is so intense. Quick, someone censor it! ;)

As do we.

What's Next?

My friends, I have to go study now but I thought I'd share this video first by our very own Devon Gundry :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_g21wl48AY

Warm regards.

consists = consensus sigh

Looks like I missed the shootout, but after reading everything posted below, I had to throw in:

I would like to point out that I enjoyed the use of the moniker "T'Bro" in reference to @TutherBrother . It makes him sound like a pop star.