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flashbanding

- 2 years ago

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So which bits are untrue?

I see many people on here who clearly believe as I do that the compendium Book we now know as "The BIble", is not holy and is not wholly true - some go as far as to say it is all nonsense... wishful stories and poems - others say the important bit is the gospels - the glorious bits where Christ the historical figure is recorded. and that we should take the rest with a huge pinch of metaphorical salt... My question is directed to those who, calling themselves Christians, or others who believe in the Judaic traditional God, do also unite the old and new testaments as one book and claim that it is history or truth... How is this in any way possible? I will quote Dawkins on the Old Testament in the comment section for some rationale for this...

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Songs of Solomon 2:12) I had no clue that turtles could speak.

LOL! I'm new at this type of communication, but I've noticed some other people changing their avatars, so I thought I'd copy y'all. I was pretty much accused of not having any of my own ideas by another SPer, recently, so I guess it's true! I'm just a sheep! Anyway, yeah, I love pictures of concentric circles or waves because that's how I see us. Each of us is emitting waves of energy with our thoughts, emotions & actions that go out into the Universe just like that. If you were to study whale characteristics & facts, you might find some stuff that you resonate with on a spiritual or metaphysical level. Now, when it comes to documents & texts, etc., they're written by humans. Then they're passed down & 'preserved' by other humans. Then you have the fact that terminology & language changes (recently National Geographic magazine did a short article on how much certain words had changed definition - you'd be surprised, I'm sure). So, while texts are interesting to study, one must always strive to maintain, nurture & trust their unique bond to the Universe. The journey without will never beat the journey within. IMO. Peace & Love to U!

Okay, well, I respect your OPINION, but my stance is that anything written by humans, no matter how divinely inspired one believes it to be, comes through & is passed down through many human filters, which are never without error & are ALWAYS fallible. Even though I'm nothing close to an atheist, for all intents & purposes, just pretend I am. I will not debate with you about this because religion of any kind is something I will never choose or agree with. If it serves a purpose for you to believe in a human construct, that's cool. But it's never going to be my choice. And I have no reason to try to change your mind, so there will be no debating this with me. WeR1...

juts FYI - The Torah provides a list of forbidden birds (Lev. 11:13-19; Deut. 14:11-18), but does not specify why these particular birds are forbidden. All of the birds on the list are birds of prey or scavengers, thus the rabbis inferred that this was the basis for the distinction. Other birds are permitted, such as chicken, geese, ducks and turkeys. However, some people avoid turkey, because it is was unknown at the time of the giving of the Torah, leaving room for doubt. I love that bit - leaving room for doubt... a whole religion whereby the words written by possibly more than one man, feeling inspired by some wondrously contradictory God - decided to lay down the law in words for people to obey forever... only he didn't know Turkeys existed... didn't know common sense existed either it seems - and people still want to follow these rules...as if they are afraid to escape the primitive, even whilst driving their cars - ...which would probably have been banned and drivers bashed to death with kosher carburettors, if Leviticus had seen them coming...

"... The Baha'i God is the Christian God and the Mohammedan God and the Zoroastrian God and the God of the Adamic Covenant. The One God, in fact. ... that the Christian view of God offers the comfort of closeness.... However, since ALL relationships with God are, by definition, personal and individual, ... As is the understanding of all Holy Writings... The Bible is imperfect simply because we made it... If, as i think we both believe, there is only one God, ..." I hope i haven't butchered you quote too badly, i only intended to point out the parts that had greatest effect on me. "...To clear up your single misapprehension - we do not seek ot convert others to our faith - it's actually prohibited - we seek to find ways in which all believers in the one true God can come together, without necessarily abandoning their beliefs. We are one race, the human race. There is but one God. We should seek Him together..." These two quotes have summed up the crisis of faith i thought i was dealing with. First after being raised reformed jew, then lending myself to Christian indoctrination, i found new unexplainable ideas form that i felt best to keep secret. All i needed was more reasons to be ostracized and thumped beyond recognition. These ideas are more than adequately describe in your quotes above: My belief in one God by whatever name or how many names. That personal relationships with God were not a privilege for Christians only. I began to cynically call Heaven a small "Christian Country Club" (I don't intend irreverence but this just seemed absurd to me.) This all occurred in my heart and mind before I ever heard of Baha'i. The research i did on Baha'i was like watching a documentary on Christianity on the History Channel, entirely secular. I did begin to feel that this site was trying to "convert" me to a "religion" that held many of my beliefs. Still i was not very comfortable with it and the story of its origin. My own unresolved prejudices i suppose. Your comment, "...we do not seek ot convert others ... it's actually prohibited ... we seek to find ways in which all believers in the one true God can come together, without necessarily abandoning their beliefs. ... There is but one God. We should seek Him together..." I am now much less skeptical about Baha'i. I still at the moment prefer not to label myself, i am not ready for that. without necessarily abandoning their beliefs is what i had gathered before. Still I have a sense of limbo. Reconciling being a Christian with their strong attitude of exclusivity yet believing "...There is but one God. We should seek Him together..." Well, it's not reconciling. I feel at a loss for how to worship the one and only God within the Christian confines or to adhere to any one particular religious ideology or rituals. Yet i miss the comfort of worship and the wonderful songs that sing of God and us in the ideal not the flesh. I would love to hear from other Christians who have crossed this road and how they worship today. Thank you for your concise and sincere explanations. I thought I was either insane or possessed ;-) Peace

@Alaeddin "So ultimately it is our deeds or decisions in this life which will decide how we live the next." I see what you're saying now. But that's not what Jesus was preaching and its definitely not what Paul taught. I think Christianity is defined more as, "No matter what you do, you will not 'qualify' but Christ did for you. He has given us His righteousness and now we're accepted. Once that happens and we're now lead in life by the Spirit of God, our lives will look more like Jesus. and you don't forfeit free will, you freely choose God.

I've been thinking a lot about this for a while now (as one who has, for a time. believed that God's word is truth). Imho, it is a matter of how one determines the difference between the metaphorical/parable and the literal. If "bits" ring untrue, their bound to be a metaphor and the message is more important than suppositions of true and false.

Exodus 20:4-5. God says He's jealous. I think He means for worship based on the context. "in Islam, God encourages us to do good deeds because it is our deeds or how we live this life which will decide how we live our next life. But this is also true in christianity. " With due respect I don't think that is a true description of Christianity.

Please keep in mind - I do understand that the Old Testament and even much of the New for that matter is loaded with symbolism, poetry, and visions. When I said everything could be verified historically I was referring to facts - like places, wars, currencies, peoples, artifacts, etc.

The truth is, everything ancient in the book can be verified outside scripture. And I do mean everything. I'm not a crazy right wing nut. In fact, I'm not very conservative at all. I love this website, and I love the discussion among other studied and informed people. I come from a philosophy and theology background, so I would like to just make a few points. You can't consider Jesus simply a great historical moral teacher - He never called himself that. He claimed to be much more than that. His moral teachings were astounding not only back then, but even today. I mean, if you hate someone - you've killed them in your heart? What?? It's really beautiful what he did actually. He made people realize how impossibly high the bar was set by the LAW - and that it could never be attained on our own. That's why he brought about a new covenant. Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi, and ultimately the last sacrifice - to bring an end to sacrifices and ultimately bring the WHOLE story full circle. We can't just pick and choose the parts we're comfortable with, you know? But, at the heart of the good news is this - LOVE GOD - LOVE PEOPLE. That's it. Jesus even said people with different theology but love in their hearts were blessed. So, at the very least, coexist in peace. Anyway, chew it, let me know how it tastes! Cheers! [Oh and please, PLEASE don't use Dawkins as the backbone for your position. He is closed minded and a lazy researcher. His philosophy is lazy and he should stick to his own field. Tell your book club you want a new book! Haha, sorry for going off on that but I had to read a lot of his stuff in school - it honestly does not hold up under scrutiny.]

Where it says we should be baptized with both fire and water- I'm pretty sure that at least one of those is meant figuratively.

for me, the bible is a bunch of parables, written to teach lessons about forgiveness, trust, strength, humanity, etc. of course we should take it with a grain of salt, it would be absurd not to.

I've given up trying to peove this or prove that from the Bible, I'm Christian but well aware of the inconsistencies that are found, one only needs to compare the first two books of Genesis to start finding them. I used to be, I suppose more fundamentalist, spending hours upon hours looking up words in Hebrew and Greek, trying to get down to the "nth" degree of what was the exact truth. But I found that the more I did, the more I was studing so I could be "right" in an arguement doctrinally than I was doing it to search for God. I was provebially "Not seeing the forest through the trees" The problem then became, I was getting full of facts, but not getting a relationship with God, so needless to say, I got frustrated and ended up leaving the church because, well, they weren't listening to me and MY interpretation of truth. Egad, what a proud b*****d I had become. But, honestly, after some time away from God, church, I felt like it was time to start again but from a "less of me" perspective. I had read some books "The Ragamuffin Gospel" by Brendon Manning, "The Shack", and "The Secret Message of Jesus" by Brian McClaren. and it changed my entire way of thinking about God. What disappeared from me was the "need to know" everything, the "need to know" every minute detail, the "I have to prove my point" perspective. The Bible became personal, meaning, it may have different effects to different individuals. Letting God into picture (and into His own book haha) allowed one to say, I found this and this spoke to me because that is what I needed. You may find something different because that is what you needed. It opened up a whole new personification of God as working within people individually rather than strict conformity. I hate to use the term as George Harrison said "Any road you choose will get you there" but there are indeed different roads to the same place. Theologians despise relativity because it goes against an absolute but I can't help seeing relativity itself in the Bible. In fact, relativity is all over the Bible, we've just been conditioned to fight against it. So, breathe it in, and alloe someone else to breathe it in, the truth you find may be the truth you need at that time, the truth another finds may be the truth they need, the path is not linear, it ebbs and flows, it's saying to God, please give me what I need to know at this time in my life. And for everyone, it's different. THAT is giving it up to God, to trust that you are recieving what you need, and someone is receiving what they need, and not to fight and bicker over it. That's the God and Bible I believe in.

so which bits are untrue and which bits true - anybody? opinions here (knowing that 'fact' is beyond reach)

@flashbanding smiting? depends. Lot was told that he must take his family and leave and not look back. When Lot's wife disobeyed God and looked back THEN she turned into a pillar of salt. God promised Israel that if they obeyed Him, He would protect them. When they did, He did. When they didn't, He punished them. as for the 'bullshot' I'm spewing out, I apologize if its not as researched as you would like or if I'm not as grown up you think I should be before having this conversation. But I'm not here to simply perpetuate my beliefs, though I wish everyone here would turn to Jesus for... well everything. I am hear to listen, and I've enjoyed reading what you all have been writing. But if you guys expect to be listened to, you can cut that condescending crap and leave it at the door. If you want your beliefs heard and discussed (which I would love to do) you help your case but showing the same respect that you want in return.

I believe the Bible is a collection of historical writings from people over many years which reflect what those particular people believed or how they saw events. I do not believe it is inspired by God or is the word of God. People could easily have exaggerated, made up, or altered what actually happened when they wrote it, it is full of error and contradiction and so I don't think its very reliable. If a book was truly from God, it would logically be free from inconsistencies. I do however regard it as a predominantly good book. It has a good message of monothiesm even if this has been tainted to include a triune god. It also teaches good moral and ethical values and inspires a lot of good. So the basic message, the general gist of a lot of the stories, mostly about the prophets and messengers, I would say are very good. The untrue parts lie in the details for the most part. Or the biggest untruths in the Bible in my opinion would be the representation of Jesus. I do not think he was divine or that he was crucified.

Well I think the whole thing is True. Remember the Bible is full of different types of genres. Proverbs and Ecclesiastes are basically philosophical truths, the prophets (about the last 3rd of the old testament) are people telling Israel what God thinks and or wants. Leviticus is basically a list of laws. The whole old Testament is about God's relationship to the nation of Israel and how He would use them to bless the whole world despite their constant rebellion. The New Testament talks about Jesus which was the fulfillment of God's plan. There are also bits of songs and poetry. But if your asking if people think Adam and Eve were the first two people, if there was a talking snake, a great flood, angels or whether or not Jonah was in the belly of a whale, then yes I believe those stories actually happened.

@flashbanding Minchinhampton, Cotswolds, the heart of England

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SoulPancake

flashbanding

So which bits are untrue?

DanielPotashov

Songs of Solomon 2:12) I had no clue that turtles could speak.

earthshamankel

earthshamankel

flashbanding

disconnected1954

disconnected1954

Turbyfill

disconnected1954

Turbyfill

danquiroz

Please keep in mind - I do understand that the Old Testament and even much of the New for that matter is loaded with symbolism, poetry, and visions. When I said everything could be verified historically I was referring to facts - like places, wars, currencies, peoples, artifacts, etc.

danquiroz

DAISYDO

Where it says we should be baptized with both fire and water- I'm pretty sure that at least one of those is meant figuratively.

ulakulpa

for me, the bible is a bunch of parables, written to teach lessons about forgiveness, trust, strength, humanity, etc. of course we should take it with a grain of salt, it would be absurd not to.

Guitardds

flashbanding

so which bits are untrue and which bits true - anybody? opinions here (knowing that 'fact' is beyond reach)

Turbyfill

Alaeddin

Turbyfill

So which bits are untrue?

Songs of Solomon 2:12) I had no clue that turtles could speak.

Please keep in mind - I do understand that the Old Testament and even much of the New for that matter is loaded with symbolism, poetry, and visions. When I said everything could be verified historically I was referring to facts - like places, wars, currencies, peoples, artifacts, etc.

Where it says we should be baptized with both fire and water- I'm pretty sure that at least one of those is meant figuratively.

for me, the bible is a bunch of parables, written to teach lessons about forgiveness, trust, strength, humanity, etc. of course we should take it with a grain of salt, it would be absurd not to.

so which bits are untrue and which bits true - anybody? opinions here (knowing that 'fact' is beyond reach)

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