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applegrass

- 3 years ago

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How free is your will, really?

Theist, atheist, agnostic... whatever philosophical ideas you wrap yourself in, how do you reconcile the paradoxical principles of cause/effect, probability (potential), and agency? What defines you, your choices or your destiny? Please watch this clip from the very awesome movie Waking Live before answering: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VxQuPBX1_U&feature=related **Sorry if this is a double post. I waited 30 minutes after the first try, and assumed it didn't take the first time. Lots of love all.

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there is no free will. If situation would be exactly the same (and you had exactly the same knowledge) then you would make exactly the same choice. So you really had no choice in the choice you made. It doesnt really change anything at all just perspective. Most people dont really get this aspect though. If you would rewind time and play it again same things would happen so there is no free will at all.

Free Willy was one of my favourite movies...

I have no answer to your question, but I have this quote, which makes me quite happy: "Real faith does not mean professing what we hold true in a ready-made formula. On the contrary: it means holding ourselves open to the unconditional mystery which we encounter in every sphere of our life and which cannot be comprised in any formula. It means that, from the very roots of our being, we should always be prepared to live with this mystery as one being lives with another. Real faith means the ability to endure life in the face of this mystery." - Martin Buber I think your question touches on this unconditional mystery.

@applegrass I do not ask you to acknowledge anything. You asked if the analogy was close. I am simply pointing out that your response is just as impersonal as the 'deconstructive game' you play. Being objective is one thing, but you ignore my meaning to find something to attack (poke your stick at). It is the deceit that hurts, not the content of the arguments made. Two examples of your deceitful challenges. #1. If what you 'know' (i.e. the existence of God, whether the Baha'i version or any other) is unknown/unknowable, how can you claim to have any knowledge of it whatsoever? I find it very hard to believe that this is a sincere question. You know the ocean, but do not understand everything about it. How can you not see that (assuming He exists) God, although unknowable in His Essence, could be partially known? You claim this is a contradiction when, in fact, you know the principle in the physical world. It is this method of deceitful argument that feels like an attack. You are familiar with the principle of partial understanding, but you pretend not to be so you can throw more darts. It is the pretense that destroys relationship not the darts. #2. THIS IS THE STATEMENT I MADE: No objective argument can come close to influencing me otherwise. It is like gnats buzzing around an eagle. I may doubt myself, but my experience shrugs off the arguments of others with ease. In that statement, I am obviously addressing the relative level of influence of others arguments compared to my own subjective experience. It is the weakness of arguments in general that I am talking about. I am not saying the arguments are wrong, only that, as impersonal sources, they are generally ineffective. I am not saying I cannot doubt. I even said I can doubt. You deliberately took one sentence out of context to try to claim that I was insisting that I was right and was unwilling to have my ideas held up to scrutiny. I had been sharing my ideas for your scrutiny most generously. I have never insisted on my rightness. You know/knew this. It seems you are using me to argue with some ghost or something. THIS WAS YOUR STATEMENT: It's far easier to be assured that you're 'right' in your personally-held beliefs than to allow them to be held up against the light of scrutiny. You take my words out of context so you can play your ‘deconstructive game’. I do not want to play. I will not expose myself to you like this anymore. I am hoping you do not reply.

"What we can discover/'know' collectively, is what we should apply collectively, imo." - Brilliantly concise, and oh so true.

opps...gotcha...sorry @applegrass ...didn't mean to step on your topic! ;o)

Wow. This one really blossomed into a marathon of intellectual calisthenics. Why so complex though? Free will is the ability to act at ones own discretion. Having experiences that shape how you may act in the future doesn't preclude the choice of something else. You can do what has worked for you, or not. You can do what hasn't worked for you, or not. You can chose to improve, or not. What's right, or not. What's wrong, or not. Or chose nothing at all. There isn't a linkage to anything other than yourself that limits free will. And that too is a choice of your own discretion.

This is the MOTH post. It just occurred to me to wonder if any scientific studies have determined a theory as to why this self-destructive behavior has evolved. Of course, it does not matter to our discussion because the moth is just an analogy. Nature usually has a reason for such things, or at least we usually find a way to speculate on some reasons. Oh, well. Does the moth have the ability to not be drawn to the flame? Is the specter of the choice to be consumed by the divine flame really a choice? What moth in his right mind, given a choice, would approach the flame? First, while the analogy points to it, the truth of the matter is not CONTAINED in the analogy. How real moths behave is used as an illustration- like the meaning in a poem is not just in the words or images. The essence within a human is drawn to spirit/reality. Assuming God exists, the essence within a human is drawn to God/Reality. Individuals have varying degrees of capacity, but all have a spiritual essence; all are designed to know and to love God. Physical, mental, emotional, and environmental problems can interfere with routine processes, but I will just address normal circumstances. The Reality of the Creator, Who, with a thought, brought all into being, is beyond the comprehension of humans. Nevertheless, this Reality is our home. We have all eternity to journey towards it through the many worlds of God. This material plane is the first of them. On this plane we are dependent on material means to survive and are interdependent with each other for survival, security, comfort, progress, etc. We naturally pay attention to and care about our own material well-being. We also naturally pay attention to and care about our spiritual needs. We appreciate the beauties of nature; we listen to music; we express our individuality, we recognize the inherent value of life itself, we honor ourselves with identity and dignity. Of course, we have a dual nature, being both spiritual and material. We compromise. We get squelched. We are negligent. We make mistakes. We are distracted. We are in competition with others. Often our material interests conflict with our spiritual interests. We live on this see-saw. As we learn, our balancing skills improve. We can be more deliberate in allotting our attention. We learn to cooperate more with others for our mutual benefit. We may learn to share more and to care more just because we value others. God is calling us to be like the moth. Focus on the Light. Ignore the distractions. Love the light. Involve yourself deeply with spirit. We respond in different degrees to this invitation. It is an invitation, not a coercion. Some people so love the Light that they endure hardship rather than violate spirit. Some who find themselves in extreme circumstances sacrifice their very lives when given a choice of maintaining relationship with God or being tortured and killed. One of the places where this is happening in our time is Iran. I am amazed by the spirit of the Friends (Bahais). The Friends are given a document to sign- all you have to do is sign it, you do not have to meant it or believe what it says, just sign. If you sign, you will no longer be tortured or imprisoned and your property will be restored to you and you can have your job back and your children can go to college and your younger children won’t be harassed by teachers in school and you can have peace everywhere except in your heart. I have spoken with some of the youth in Iran on the phone. They are not frightened. They are active. They are not bitter. They do not want to leave their country. They love Iran. They want to serve and make Iran better. Well, I hope I am not rambling. I was trying to get to a point. I guess I’ll just make it without building the stairs. Dear AppleGrass, I think you do love the light. I don’t know what you call it, but you are very intent on the truth Peace

theoritically, it is absolutely free. in one single moment of understanding you can reverse or change completely whole of your "previous" cause/effect relationships. but in order to get this understanding you have to use your free will wisely and consciously for at least a while. since there are many complex cause/effect relations binding us all, it may take pretty much of an effort to direct your will to the right direction to get to this undrestanding. this effort required may prompt you think that perhaps your will is not free. once you think of that and make believe, you begin to lose your conscious and it is hardly free from then on.

Even if I don't actually have free will, things are complex enough that it certainly feels as if I do, and I'll continue to use that and to feel that because that feeling came before the question, and the question cannot be answered to anyone's satisfaction as far as I can tell, so I'll go with what works for me.

Now- identity, individuality, and responsibility. (This is hastily done. Please be kind.) We each are a layered reality. The human essence is spirit. The awareness and understanding we have of the we are in essence is limited. We each have potential we cannot imagine. The selves we each have on this plane are largely sub-conscious. The more aware and coordinated we become, the greater the continuity with which we experience life and express ourselves. Still, much of who we are is subconscious. The outer layer of who we are is consciousness. Our intent is expressed from both the conscious and sub/un-conscious. We must live in society with other folks. Rules and laws are required for order. Of necessity, the law must hold us responsible for our actions. Sometimes the law takes intent and degrees of consciousness into account. Aside from man’s law, God holds us accountable, too. In this case, however, it is not so cut and dried as simply following rules. As you say: all faith traditions require some conception of 'God's Grace,' or an ultimate transcendence from the culpability of our actions. There are rules which we are supposed to obey, but God is more interested in the condition of your heart and the effort you put into being virtuous. He knows our capacity. I do not believe God is so concerned with convicting us as He is with educating us. Identity. We each have a personal identity. As a person of faith, I try to align my identity with who God tells me human beings are. This does not infringe on my freedom. It’s like getting a peek at the Manufacture’s manual. Once you accept the Source, it is a privilege to strive to meet that pattern/standard. This whole business is not a logical construction in It’s reality. We humans use reason, among other faculties, to understand/explain/interpret It. Reason is a capacity of man. The spiritual reality encompasses much more than reason. Reason as a means to try to sort it out, of necessity, falls short in my opinion. We have different points of view and different definitions and different opinions. It’s OK. I like trying to understand where you are coming from. I like trying to explain my beliefs to you. The bottom line is that nothing is true BECAUSE it is believed- the truth of it is not dependent on our belief. Our perception changes as we learn. Being a Bahai is like swimming in an ocean. Although it is a vast expanse on the surface, the depths are calling too. Turning loose of this ego-driven self is like holding your breath for a dive. You have strong beliefs too. It’s a good thing, but it can be difficult to express/interpret from one world to the other. Of course, that’s why we live in different bodies- so we can each have our own ideas and experiences. Love you. AppleGrass for Pancake Queen.

what's all this fuss about how tight is your underwear? Oh, how free is your will? I thought it asked how free is your willy? That's very different. Never mind.

I love Waking Life!

We operate within physical frameworks (perhaps put there for our own protection??). When one pays poker there a great, but limited, number of card combinations within the realm of that game, but unlimited possibilities courtesy of choice. One works within the physical framework of the game, the limited number of cards of each type; but can turn a grand nothing into a winning hand, should one choose to. I think we may need to re-define our definition of "free choice". Just because I cannot float off cliffs or turn ice cream sundaes into elephants doesn't mean I lack free choice. And on the metaphysical side of things, just because God exists in a different realm where time is not linear doesn't mean there is no interaction. Look at some of the stories in the Old Testament like Jacob physically wrestling with God and Abraham being allowed to place conditions on the fate of Sodom & Gomorrah. Does a child have free will? Well, it's in submission to their parent's will up to a point because the child doesn't know enough about how the physical "game" works to ensure their survival. But the loving parent is actively working towards the day when that child will exercise free will with the understanding that actions breed consequences -- good and bad. We are spiritual children -- and I don't think the model of a loving parent is too far off when trying to understand the relationship one can have with a God who is omni-present not just within this moment, but simultaneously throughout our linear model of time.

Free will means we have conscious options and we are held responsible.

The me we think of ourselves as being is conscious. We make decisions. We are free to make decisions. We are free to act on the decisions we make. We are responsible for the consequences of our actions, whether intended or not. We are not absolute beings. The consequences of our actions are subject to natural laws. There is no need to make this complicated. Yes, everything that happens is within the will of God, but it not by His intent. He has set processes in motion and given us a job to do. When we mess up, there are consequences from which we can get a lesson. Comfort is not the goal of our existence. When the innocent suffer and the nobel sacrifice in this world they are richly compensated in the next world. God designed it this way.

i think Johnathan Edwards does the best breakdown of the freedom of the will. the question is really how freely can we choose? every choice is made on some bias.

There are the scientific laws in place. Inside these rules we are totally free. We do not have to eat, drink water, pay bills, follow the speed limits. There is really nothing that we HAVE to do.

Free will is one of many parts of life that are difficult to wrap your hands around. And as we apply science and theory the water continues to muddy, at least for me. Honestly, I know I do not have all the answers, in fact I probably have few, and the more scientific a conversation gets often times my eyes glaze over. However, since I have become a parent I have gotten a glimpse into how free will may work. This is a very simplistic analogy but it is the easiest way for me to begin wrapping my hands around the concept. The example I think of is that my children LOVE McDonalds, I don't know why, maybe there is little kid crack in the chicken nuggets, but never the less they always want to eat there. Now I can give them the choice of eating anywhere or McDonalds and I know I will end up with a Big Mac and fries. My children have the freedom to choose and opportunity to pick numerous options, and yet I know what their choice will be. I also know that if I do not want them to choose McDonalds I can remove it from the equation but still allow them to feel the confidence that they were able to choose. I realize this may not be in the vein of your question but it is my two cents. I am not trying to dumb down the complexity of the question, just trying put it on a level I can try to keep my arms wrapped around it.

(Binary/Image)

@applegrass Minneapolis, MN

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applegrass

How free is your will, really?

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Free Willy was one of my favourite movies...

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"What we can discover/'know' collectively, is what we should apply collectively, imo." - Brilliantly concise, and oh so true.

ckirk

opps...gotcha...sorry @applegrass ...didn't mean to step on your topic! ;o)

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PopeSkippyXVI

what's all this fuss about how tight is your underwear? Oh, how free is your will? I thought it asked how free is your willy? That's very different. Never mind.

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I love Waking Life!

Griz

DAISYDO

Free will means we have conscious options and we are held responsible.

DAISYDO

Rbrtfrederick

i think Johnathan Edwards does the best breakdown of the freedom of the will. the question is really how freely can we choose? every choice is made on some bias.

Cubis_Max

There are the scientific laws in place. Inside these rules we are totally free. We do not have to eat, drink water, pay bills, follow the speed limits. There is really nothing that we HAVE to do.

McTbone

xtinct2

(Binary/Image)

How free is your will, really?

Free Willy was one of my favourite movies...

"What we can discover/'know' collectively, is what we should apply collectively, imo." - Brilliantly concise, and oh so true.

opps...gotcha...sorry @applegrass ...didn't mean to step on your topic! ;o)

what's all this fuss about how tight is your underwear? Oh, how free is your will? I thought it asked how free is your willy? That's very different. Never mind.

I love Waking Life!

Free will means we have conscious options and we are held responsible.

i think Johnathan Edwards does the best breakdown of the freedom of the will. the question is really how freely can we choose? every choice is made on some bias.

There are the scientific laws in place. Inside these rules we are totally free. We do not have to eat, drink water, pay bills, follow the speed limits. There is really nothing that we HAVE to do.

(Binary/Image)

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