SoulPancake / Conversations / Have atheists won the debate?

lombardian

- 3 years ago

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Have atheists won the debate?

I found a blog post recently (a link to which you can find posted below) which made a very interesting assertion. That being, atheism has won "the debate" over the existence of god. A very bold thing to say, I realise, but the blogger in question (Mano Singham) makes a few interesting arguments which are definitely worth checking out.

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Something so deeply personal as faith can not and will never be concluded by debate. Everybody chooses their own path according to their view of the world.

This isn't a debate that can be won, nor is it one that will ever come to an end. Unless we as humans manage to pierce the veil between this world and the next (assuming that there is life after death) we will never know for sure. As for evolution, there is no debate. It happens. It is truth. It is a documented and observed fact in the wild and in the lab. But god, whatever the hell he is, if he is anything at all (or is a "he")... well, that's just something to leave alone. You can't rock the very core of someone's beliefs and expect to walk away without a vehement arguement.

It is my opinion that no one has has truly had the so-called debate, because there isn't a real debate going on, just a bunch of people belittling different people's worldviews. Atheism is just as much of a religion as all the other religions, it just puts mankind at the center, instead of some sort of unseen spiritual deity. The fact remains that if I give an Atheist all the evidence in the world that would prove a creator, they still wouldn't believe because it strips them of their God, which is mankind. Same with the religious communities of the world, if I gave them all the evidence that their God and all other God's didn't exist they wouldn't believe me because I've stripped them of their God. The concept of a debate is someone has one opinion and has a rational, respectful discussion to convince the other person of another idea while keeping an open mind and a willingness to change their own viewpoint if the other side presents a rational and logical argument. Both sides are unwilling to do this because that would take mutual respect for one another and each others beliefs, and until that happens a true debate will never take place. Basically to have a true debate we need to remove emotion, and I don't think that is possible when discussing religion. As a post-script I don't necessarily believe that removing emotion from the discussion of religion is a good thing, and there I'm not sure if having a true debate over atheism vs. theism is a good thing or necessary thing.

there's no way to win, until you die and find out yourself. but really, you might not even win that. maybe whatever YOU believe will happen, will. we'll eventually all find out.

?? Saying, "I'm going to wait for the empirical" is like the smoker who waited until it was absolutely proven cigarette smoking causes cancer. They still ended up with cancer without clear-cut, tried and true, generally accepted empirical evidence. Perhaps they can take solace in the fact their faith is in the empirical? We're still waiting for "the empirical" on climate change, and then the inevitable long process before modifying our behaviour to honour the empirical. And in the mean time the earth "has cancer" called US. Sometimes one has to move, to take a stand, instead of just sitting back and waiting for someone to tell us to take a stand and which stand to take and how long to stand there. "Sorry, the scientists haven't told me I can believe in that yet". Sort of like the kid cashiers who won't do anything unless the computer tells them to do it, how to do it, what they can and cannot do -- "Sorry, the machine won't let me treat you like a fellow human!" And perhaps exactly like people under the thrall of the Popes and priests -- being told when it's OK to believe, what they can believe, why they believe, how they believe. We love to be told what it's OK to believe. We just play musical chairs with who gets to sit in the chair of power over us!

Since atheists constitute no more than 1% of the world's population, I'd say no.

From the subjective perspective, I'd say yes... he's probably right. From the objective perspective (the one atheists love so much and seek so hard to find), I'd say the jury is still hung.

Some how I have come to believe that we are not all going to believe the same thing for a reason.And all beliefs some how fit together as the whole answer.We all have things we can learn from each other no matter what we believe.

Reasonably one could assume that if neither side could either fully prove their own point or fully disprove the other parties point than both arguments must have some truth and some falsehoods (or both are entirely wrong but that's another argument). So, both win and both lose. Both are right on some fronts and both are wrong on some fronts... everybody wins and everybody loses. I say they just declare a stalemate and get on with life.

Who cares about who wins.Why can't we believe what we want and not push our personal beliefs on one another.Respect for one another should be the winner!

@dancingplatypus Yeah, what you said! :)

The debate ain't over yet....God has all the time in the world.

What debate? Care to reasonably debate my belief that Stalin impregnated a 19-year old Guatemalan national as punishment for her failing to hang his socks out to dry? No, you don't. My proposition lacks any valid evidence and is in principle unfalsifiable; no debate can be held on such grounds. Sorry, folks... there's no evidence anything supernatural exists (if there was, it'd be natural, wouldn't it?!). Atheism is the default position. No one's born a theist, no one's born an agnostic either. This "debate" is nonexistent because the opposition (theists) haven't brought forth anything capable of being debated.

some believe in a God that is all powerful, acts in mysterious ways, and is not held to human standards, beyond human understanding. there is no way to win a debate with such a person

SoulPancake

lombardian

Have atheists won the debate?

UDRF

Something so deeply personal as faith can not and will never be concluded by debate. Everybody chooses their own path according to their view of the world.

asbestosIV

reubendevries

iamthespicegirl

there's no way to win, until you die and find out yourself. but really, you might not even win that. maybe whatever YOU believe will happen, will. we'll eventually all find out.

Griz

mcdermid

Since atheists constitute no more than 1% of the world's population, I'd say no.

applegrass

From the subjective perspective, I'd say yes... he's probably right. From the objective perspective (the one atheists love so much and seek so hard to find), I'd say the jury is still hung.

Geogie

Some how I have come to believe that we are not all going to believe the same thing for a reason.And all beliefs some how fit together as the whole answer.We all have things we can learn from each other no matter what we believe.

Mistral

Geogie

Who cares about who wins.Why can't we believe what we want and not push our personal beliefs on one another.Respect for one another should be the winner!

pinkbayou

@dancingplatypus Yeah, what you said! :)

northstop

The debate ain't over yet....God has all the time in the world.

krillinhazuki

MLZellers

some believe in a God that is all powerful, acts in mysterious ways, and is not held to human standards, beyond human understanding. there is no way to win a debate with such a person

lombardian

http://blog.case.edu/singham/2009/09/16/atheism_has_won_the_debate" target="_blank">http://blog.case.edu/singham/2009/09/16/atheism_has_won_the_debate

Have atheists won the debate?

Something so deeply personal as faith can not and will never be concluded by debate. Everybody chooses their own path according to their view of the world.

there's no way to win, until you die and find out yourself. but really, you might not even win that. maybe whatever YOU believe will happen, will. we'll eventually all find out.

Since atheists constitute no more than 1% of the world's population, I'd say no.

From the subjective perspective, I'd say yes... he's probably right. From the objective perspective (the one atheists love so much and seek so hard to find), I'd say the jury is still hung.

Some how I have come to believe that we are not all going to believe the same thing for a reason.And all beliefs some how fit together as the whole answer.We all have things we can learn from each other no matter what we believe.

Who cares about who wins.Why can't we believe what we want and not push our personal beliefs on one another.Respect for one another should be the winner!

@dancingplatypus Yeah, what you said! :)

The debate ain't over yet....God has all the time in the world.

some believe in a God that is all powerful, acts in mysterious ways, and is not held to human standards, beyond human understanding. there is no way to *win* a debate with such a person

http://blog.case.edu/singham/2009/09/16/atheism_has_won_the_debate" target="_blank">http://blog.case.edu/singham/2009/09/16/atheism_has_won_the_debate

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some believe in a God that is all powerful, acts in mysterious ways, and is not held to human standards, beyond human understanding. there is no way to win a debate with such a person