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It seems I have returned late and found this turned into a discussion of experience of Christian theses - well, to largely ignore these aspects I would initially politely agree with Kensho1111, and ... In response to the question "why I think this is a dumb question... (or I should randomly give every third poster some money)- I would say that it is dumb question because it is a little like discussing whether Friends the TV show or the tooth fairy has caused the greatest obstacle to the pursuit of world peace... Secondly I would say that what was set up was based on an intensely internal, personal view of what either of these two parallel concepts actually means - and this is one example: "What it comes down to (for me) is that God is completely trustworthy, and everything He does is in our best interest. The reason I can make such a blanket statement about Him is not because of my experience of reading the Bible but because I have tested God over and over again in my life, and He hasn't failed me yet", ... a personal view is one thing - evenhanded me says fine - have your view that suits you, no problem, but to ask the wider public, (once again), to ascertain how many angels can dance on the head of a pin is where this question is at - and that is my rationale... dumb = posing questions on the banal, irrelevant to real life issues, level I find most annoying. My own equivalent might be... the Sun or the Moon, what do you think? My experience of the sun is it has never let me down, it has come up since eternity, every day, with predictable regularity, it gives me all the energy, current and historic that exists on the planet, and its evil twin the moon just makes tides go in and out and dogs bark - therefore the Moon has caused more problems than the sun...
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god creats adam and eve... they sin... sin enters all th world... god had nothing to do with sin... satan is mearly a tempter.. we are to blame for the worlds problems
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Interesting that we have to blame God or the Devil. How about answering for our own poor decisions. If we're going to blame someone, blame mankind.
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God is within man, yet man insists on blaming God. Man is oblivious. God is obvious. As far as the devil goes, there's no devil; only a projection of man's shortcomings. Assigning blame to either are reflections of man's refusal to look inward and take responsibility for everything from his thoughts to his actions.
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It's interesting to hear christians talk about free will as if it's just to be assumed, because the bible often states the opposite. Consider this small sample of verses: But I will harden his (Pharaoh's) heart, so that he will not let the people go." (Ex. 4:21) "And I indeed will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them. So I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, his chariots, and his horsemen." (Ex. 14:17) "But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass through, for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into your hand" (Deut. 2:30) "For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them" (Josh. 11:20) "God sent a spirit of ill will between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech" (Jud. 9:23) "The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets" (1 Kings 22:23) "He (God) turned their heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants." (Ps. 105:25) "The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD...He turns it wherever He wishes. (Pr. 21:1) "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit" (Jn. 15:16) "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done." (Acts 4:27-28) "For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it depends not on human will (notice!) or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"" (Rom. 9:15-19) "for it is God who works in you both to will (notice again!) and to do for His good pleasure." (Phil. 2:13) So which is it from the christian perspective? Is human free will a universal constant that God never violates or does He indeed harden and soften people's hearts according to His own will and purposes? Honestly I think the bible as a whole is ambiguous about it, if not down-right contradictory. That's why the whole calvinist/arminian debate has continued to rage for centuries. As for me, I believe we do have the freedom to make our own decisions. It's intuitive to our existence. I blame neither god nor the devil....anymore.
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??? Neither of them were "given dominion" over the earth and all in/upon it. The question cannot be adequately pondered while excluding the main players who were given the earth to take care of. ie. US
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As an agnostic I don't think it's either. I think sometimes people suck and sometimes sh*t happens. But for the sake of keeping the discussion going, here are some more thoughts and questions to consider: God created Satan, Adam, and Eve. Satan was created as an angel, yet he rebelled against God and was cast down from heaven. Was Satan perfect when God created him? Did God create him to be different than angels that have not rebelled? If he was created perfect, where did the evil in his heart come from? If he was able to sin, does that mean the rest of the angels also have the capacity to rebel? Could it happen again? Were Adam and Eve created perfect? Were they flawed in any way when God 1st created them? If they were perfect, how come they disobeyed? If free will is to blame, is free will some immutable universal constant that exists independently of a creatures nature (whether perfect or flawed)? Will christians have free will in heaven? If so, will it be possible for them to choose to disobey? Why did Adam and Eve's sin have to be imputed to everyone that has ever existed after them? Was God really bound by the concept of federal headship? Is a person's will not affected by the fall? Again, is it some immutable universal constant? Or is it rather that God decreed that Satan would rebel, and decreed that Adam and Eve would disobey, and decreed that all humanity would be born under and held accountable for their sin, and all of that for His own glory? If so, then ultimately God is to blame.
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To be serious for a second, the world doesn't have problems. George Carlin joked that non bio-degradable Styrofoam doesn't hurt the earth because the earth would just treat it like another rock(which is also non bio-degradable). Problems that exist exist because humans perceive them as problems(is that sentence a palindrome?) . You could argue(effectively) that we affect the environment in a negative fashion, but even that can be traced back to a food chain cause and effect. I'm not saying that humans as a species don't have or don't create problems. I AM saying that the world doesn't really care about our problems and will go on doing its best to survive in spite of us....and succeed.
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The first sin was blame... Do we really need to find someone to blame for our evil? And is it not obvious when you step back and look at the big picture?
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I would like to blame the French but I will take the high road and blame the human condition.
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