SoulPancake / Conversations / What's the deal with atheists?

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Morality and religion are not intrinsically linked.

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@braxtonrob I dont think that religion=war but it certainly does not help. (taken from Letter to a Christian Nation) Some conflicts deeply rooted in religion; Palestine(jews vs muslims), the balkans (orthodox serbians vs bosnian and albanian muslims),Northern Ireland (protestants vs catholics),Kashmir (muslims vs HIndus), Sudan (muslims vs Christians and animists) Nigeria (muslims vs christians), Ethiopia and Eritrea (muslims vs Christians), Ivory coast (muslims vs Christians), Sri Lanka (Sinhalese budhist vs Tamil Hindus), Philippines (muslims vs Christians), Iran and iraq (shiite vs Sunni muslims), the Caucasus (Orthodox Russians vs chechen Muslims), Muslims Azerbaijanis vs Catholic and Orthodox Armenians) Just to name a FEW. Religion might not be the cause of all war, it might be land, power, money, resources, but I believe that religion is the fuel in the fire of war.

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@braxtonrob if you can't work out for yourself why killing someone is bad, you're not going to take any of my reasons for it are you? None of my reasons are ever going to be "because god says so." In any case, I believe my former statements explain my thinking. Don't confuse atheists with utilitarians. Life - the whole grand, amazing, confusing, startling mess of it all - is precious to me just for the sake of the fact that it is.

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Well, life still sucks the same amount but knowing that it's part of God's plan for you makes it easier to deal with.

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I honestly don't know how some of them deal with really bad things in life, if there is no reason for it. if anyone can answer please reply.

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@braxtonrob I really don't even get what your point is anymore... I can conceive of the concept of God too, does that mean I'm developing my faith? "...don't believe in Faith" ... How is that even coherent? You can't believe in faith, can you? I certainly wasn't aware of that. As for believing in the power of faith, that's rather evident and I'd be quickly defeated if I denied it. I don't need "evidence" for faith, it's literally right in front of me... People are faithful. I don't know what you're saying =/ I've said nothing derogatory about "faith", just that it's not a convincing argument to the unfaithful. That much should be obvious... So you have to "work" at faith... how does one go about doing that? As I've outlined before, I have an extremely "faithful" past where I was literally doing everything I could to be a good Catholic. If that wasn't "working" at faith, I don't know what is. I'll leave the government comment alone... it's just a wholly unfounded conjecture that opens up a new can of worms.

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@braxtonrob We're not "dividing" anything... both sides want the whole thing, lol, and there's only one real thing. Obviously "either god exists or he doesn't" is an oversimplification... Really, that asked a ton of questions: "Either Yahweh exists or he doesn't." "Either Shiva exists or he doesn't." "Either Thor exists or he doesn't" ... until you've exhausted all the gods, lol

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@braxtonrob Well, duh... congrats? =P Of course it's a matter of faith, that's the only reason religion is still around anymore. Saying it's all a matter of perspective is true in some sense true, but really there's only one true reality. Either God (or whatever) exists or he doesn't. Either the Bible is right, or it isn't. Just because we're using different lenses doesn't mean that reality is relative, brother. You might have faith the Bible is right, but without trying to figure out if that's really true there doesn't seem to be much merit in it. Same goes for anything else. Faith is fine for the faithful but is utterly unconvincing to those without; don't expect us to take "I have faith" as a legitimate answer.

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@braxtonrob ..."I'm saying the government allows 'religious' clubs to exist because it is itself grounded in.... religion!".... "Grounded in" could be interpreted as "bought by" religion. Grounded is just a more tactful way of putting it. :-)...(I like your term "religious clubs"; I've been using it for a long time myself!) I will admit that religion gets one slice of the political pie, as other big business lurks in the shadows right along with it. What's really scary about this whole thing, though, is religious hypocrisy being combined with many dirty, equally hypocritical politicans (who pretend to be "God-fearing Americans") results in a government of, by, and for a small minority of the people. We all know this tune, so I'll leave it at that. So much for a separation of church and state. Grounded in, indeed. Thanks for indulging me!

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@braxtonrob Well, that's the point I was trying to make about arguments from ignorance (not calling you stupid, that's just the classic name, lol) is that they're all equally valid, in that, they're not valid, haha. So any conclusion I give simply because I can't offer another explanation is just as good as any other. Ex: "Barry Bonds must be some sort of God, nobody can hit a baseball like that." "The Egyptians must have had aliens helping them, there's no other way to explain how they could build the pyramids, etc." "Time travelers must have given Oppenheimer what he needed, there's no way they made an atomic bomb on their own." Or, more plausible ones: "Morality must be due to religion, there's no way it evolved via natural selection." "The Antikythera mechanism has to be a hoax (or incorrectly dated), it couldn't have been built in 150 BCE" "Barack Obama's election must have been fixed, no black man could have won the American presidency in 2008" So, yeah, not an analogy at all... just offered other examples of the same reasoning.

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I am an atheist, and you're misusing the word. Atheism. A-theism. Non religion. I believe in God, but not in the conventional sense. I believe that there is a purpose to life, I just don't know or care what it is. I care about injustice because it is the right thing to do, and I do good by my fellow man because I know that is what should be done. Religion and ethics, religion and morality... they're not the same thing. I will concede that atheists (myself included) need to leave the religious folks alone. They should do so too. Merci.

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On a side note... Yes, the girl in that video is a bit of a tt (okay, maybe a lot of a tt, lololol)... But I'd do sexual explicit things to her. So long as she didn't open her mouth. t**t. =D

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@braxtonrob Firstly, and I'm simply curious here, you said you majored in "Organizational Behavior"... Is that a concentration within a psychology degree or did you do one of those "build your own burrito" majors? Again, just pure curiosity on that one. Anyway, your morality argument greatly resembles that of an "Argument from Ignorance." This is a classic philosophical fallacy which is really quite simple: one claims that something is the cause/justification for something else because he/she does not know of/cannot conceive of an alternative being the case. Framed in this way (irrespective of your particular argument), that doesn't seem terribly reasonable, does it? That's all you've managed to say about morality. It is due to God/religion, you've said, because I can't see how anything else could have led to it. This is analogous to saying, "I believe the Flying Spaghetti Monster constructed the Titanic because I don't understand how else it could have been built". If you don't see the parallel in those statements I'd argue you're not really examining your own words. Having said that, I'll leave it be. As for calling "atheists" "not-atheists"... I first have to admit I chuckle at the idea of a "gay man" being called a "straight man" by someone else, ya know? Or, because I know you love politics, a "democrat" being called a "republican". Regardless, the whole thing seems contingent upon morality being strictly the realm of religion, whereby you could reasonably say that no moral man could possibly be an atheist, right? I buy that, it's just logic. So I see why you're saying what you do about atheists not, in fact, being completely so. Problem is you have no justification for citing religion as the sole bastion of morality (I outlined one major issue above), and I'd argue (albeit rather colloquially) that the brute fact that "self-proclaimed atheists" are, in fact, moral beings serves to fundamentally undermine your assertion. But again, I think my first appeal has far more weight than this one.

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@braxtonrob You said, "If you turn that statement on yourself, do you only not kill people because god is watching?" Yep. LOL Pretty scary, huh?!? Wow. wow. So you're saying that you have no morals? That without god standing at your shoulder, you couldn't work out that that is the wrong thing to do?

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@braxtonrob ...."The government is huge; the church is huge. If I start a club called.....let's say....'FIGHT CLUB!' (lol).....and let's say almost the WHOLE world joins. Isn't it the sheer size of my membership that's the driving force behind why my 'club' is not taxed, and no other reason? I think so!"... So, are you telling me that the government is intimidated by the church? Your club is called FIGHT CLUB, after all. I found that choice of words rather revealing. I don't buy it. I'm not clear about wether "almost the WHOLE world" has already joined this club, or will be joining at some point in the future. Let's say it sounds hypothetical. :-) I'm not buying that either. If you have hard numbers, let's see them. It's still not going to change my opinion on the intimidation factor, though. Regarding pedophiles in the church, please note the phrase I used,"without impunity". Expecting to receive preferential treatment (exempt from punishment) if caught, by virtue (and I'll use that term very loosely) of their standing in the church. I doubt the average "neighborhood" pedophile expects the same. I hope you see the distinction. ....."The answers to a lot of your questions (possibly all!) is shockingly simple:".... I didn't ask any questions. These were statements, and I stand by them. Peace, brother.

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Wow! (to all the postings below) Isn't it a fact most war have been started by religions? This is a fact isn't it? What is an atheist? Matt, I do not know if you can identify these people as a group. It is like saying Baptist are the same as Catholics...Christians. I believe religion is harmful today because it has a tendency to separate people. But I am not atheist. I just think they need to update what they teach for today's world. For example, being gay is a sin in the Bible....hello? For example, divorce is a sin....hello? The old testament taught it was OK to stone a woman to death if she was not a virgin...that was updated...so, it can be done. I believe Christ was just another enlightened man. But I am anti-Christ. We are all humans and the question is what is the human nature.... To me atheism may be just another religion of sorts because it also is a belief system

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Just because we don't believe in god doesn't mean we don't think there is meaning in life. And we live on this planet, so of course we care about war and injustice. @theMatt86 altruism is an evolutionary and biological imperative. i don't need someone looking over my shoulder to tell me that looking after others will help me and mine in the long run...so perhaps it is delayed selfishness. Saying that religion is the cause of every war...well, it may be the excuse for many wars but you'll probably find it has more to do with politics, power and money than beliefs. @braxtonrob - how can that phrase not be insulting in the extreme? If you define morals as knowing what is right and wrong - we follow the law, we follow our instincts, we follow what we are taught by our society. This is unavoidable. Atheism, to my mind, has nothing to do with whether or not a person follows a moral code. Morals are not the sole province of religions. By the way, Protestantism is protesting against the catholic church - any christian church which is not catholic is defined this way. Atheism is not protestantism.

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I wish that i could say I don't care whether or not you believe in Christ, but I do, I also however respect that you have a right to believe what you want to believe, so im not gonna force what i believe on you. but one thing i have noticed is that for claiming that Christians as a whole are ignorant and close-minded, many times it is those same qualities I see in Atheist arguments. check these out ->godisimaginary.com whywontgodhealamputees.com

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I guess I forgot to answer the question, didn't I? LOL "This girl is a friggin r****d (pronounced "re-TARD", anyone seen the Hangover? So funny) who should read a book. It's this kinda crap that gives atheists a bad name..." There ya go, that's my answer.

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firstly, this girl doesn't really know much about what shes talking about. secondly, i agree with most of whats been said on this page. Just because atheists may not believe in God, doesn't mean that they don't care about anything. It simply means that they look at the world from a different perspective from those who think everything is from God's will.

SoulPancake

theMatt86

What's the deal with atheists?

TomRags

Morality and religion are not intrinsically linked.

imadreamer

FrumiousMe

xxMOONYxx

Well, life still sucks the same amount but knowing that it's part of God's plan for you makes it easier to deal with.

xxMOONYxx

I honestly don't know how some of them deal with really bad things in life, if there is no reason for it. if anyone can answer please reply.

krillinhazuki

krillinhazuki

krillinhazuki

kensho1111

krillinhazuki

asbestosIV

krillinhazuki

On a side note... Yes, the girl in that video is a bit of a tt (okay, maybe a lot of a tt, lololol)... But I'd do sexual explicit things to her. So long as she didn't open her mouth. t**t. =D

krillinhazuki

FrumiousMe

@braxtonrob You said, "If you turn that statement on yourself, do you only not kill people because god is watching?" Yep. LOL Pretty scary, huh?!? Wow. wow. So you're saying that you have no morals? That without god standing at your shoulder, you couldn't work out that that is the wrong thing to do?

kensho1111

Hummingbird

FrumiousMe

Striflerjn

krillinhazuki

I guess I forgot to answer the question, didn't I? LOL "This girl is a friggin r****d (pronounced "re-TARD", anyone seen the Hangover? So funny) who should read a book. It's this kinda crap that gives atheists a bad name..." There ya go, that's my answer.

bixwill

What's the deal with atheists?

Morality and religion are not intrinsically linked.

Well, life still sucks the same amount but knowing that it's part of God's plan for you makes it easier to deal with.

I honestly don't know how some of them deal with really bad things in life, if there is no reason for it. if anyone can answer please reply.

On a side note... Yes, the girl in that video is a bit of a t**t (okay, maybe a lot of a t**t, lololol)... But I'd do sexual explicit things to her. So long as she didn't open her mouth. t**t. =D

I guess I forgot to answer the question, didn't I? LOL "This girl is a friggin r****d (pronounced "re-TARD", anyone seen the Hangover? So funny) who should read a book. It's this kinda crap that gives atheists a bad name..." There ya go, that's my answer.

What's Next?

On a side note... Yes, the girl in that video is a bit of a tt (okay, maybe a lot of a tt, lololol)... But I'd do sexual explicit things to her. So long as she didn't open her mouth. t**t. =D